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Old 05-30-2012, 01:20 PM   #1
JD_Moe
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Plugged down tube to black tank

We have a 2012 Laredo 275sbh fifth wheel and have a plugged toilet. The teenage girls spent the better part of the weekend in it due to rain and after 2 days, we could see it was plugged - we assumed at the time it was simply a full tank.

We drained the tank, got home, and upon cleaning the toilet, I could see tissue in the down tube. I asked the hubby to rinse it w/a bucket of water, which proceeded to fill up the tube and bowl.

We've tried backflushing it. We've tried using a snake (carefully). We've tried a hanger. Now we're trying some Thetford Tissue Digester but it's only 55 degrees out these last few days.

Is the downtube angled on our camper? Anyone have any good ideas we haven't tried to get it unplugged? Any ideas how to prevent this from happening in the first place (aside from forcing said girls to use the campground toilet!!).

Incidentally, the tank readings on both gray tanks and the black tank read EMPTY even though we had used the camper all weekend. I wonder what is causing the gauge to not read correctly.

Thanks...
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:50 PM   #2
SteveC7010
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You have what is commonly known as a "Dreaded Black Pyramid" which forms when too many solids & TP are flushed without enough liquid in the tank. It forms directly beneath the pipe from the bottom of the toilet into the black tank. That pipe by the way is almost always vertical.

How to deal with it? Well, if you drained the tank, you've removed all the liquid and allowed the DBP to begin to dry out. The dryer it gets, the more solid it becomes. Draining the tank without dealing with the DBP just makes it worse.

If you think your tank is already drained, it may well be and that would why your gauge is reading empty. Except for that little pyramid, it is.

So, to fix it, first get a mop handle or some other sturdy pole that's about an inch in diameter. Prop open the toilet flapper valve and stick it down in there and begin to bust it up with a stirring motion. Icky job? Yes, but the alternative is a trip to the RV repair shop and the associated cost. Note: DO NOT USE ANYTHING SHARP!!!!! The absolute last thing you want to do is to damage the tank.

Run some water in while you are doing this. You should fill the tank at least half full so that the solids that you break up will float away from directly under the toilet pipe. It also makes the job a lot more tolerable. I usually bring a garden hose in the trailer and really run some water.

Once the pyramid is broken up , I prefer to let that it all sit for a day or two and soften every thing up. If possible get several bags of ice cubes. Toss them in there and take the trailer for a drive. The ice will knock things about and clean off the walls of the tank without damaging anything. It will also help to break up the remains of the pyramid.

Before you dump, fill the tank all the way. The more liquid in the tank, the more solids that will flow out when you dump and the cleaner the tank becomes. You may have to fill and dump several times to really clean things out.

Prevention in the future:

First, always leave the tank closed until you are ready to dump, even if you are in a campground with a sewer hookup. If you let it constantly drain, you'll just be building a new pyramid. You must have sufficient fluid in there to let things float around and to pull the solids out when dumping.

Same for your gray water tank that is on the same drain line with the black tank. Having that tank fairly full is good because you drain it after the black tank which will help clean things up; gray water being somewhat cleaner thank black by a few degrees. If you are in a campground with full hookups and you shower in the trailer, leave the bathroom gray tank open until the last day. Then close it and let it fill right up.

There are already several current threads about treating your holding tanks with detergents and water softeners like Calgon. Good advice and I won't repeat it here.

When you first arrive at a campground, charge your black tank with enough water to allow whatever comes down the toilet to float away from under the toilet pipe. Start with a dry tank and you are instantly building the pyramid all over again.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC7010 View Post
You have what is commonly known as a "Dreaded Black Pyramid" which forms when too many solids & TP are flushed without enough liquid in the tank. It forms directly beneath the pipe from the bottom of the toilet into the black tank. That pipe by the way is almost always vertical.
.
Steve, many of the newer 5ers have a 45° fitting in the down pipe. Don't ask me why????? A flexible hose end tank cleaner works well to unclog the down pipe and also break up the pyramid, but can get a little messy.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:09 PM   #4
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Steve, many of the newer 5ers have a 45° fitting in the down pipe. Don't ask me why????? A flexible hose end tank cleaner works well to unclog the down pipe and also break up the pyramid, but can get a little messy.
Don't it just figure that the RV manufacturers would complicate something that ought to remain simple and easy to deal with.

Well, one of these inflatable clog busters might work pretty well, too. I actually have a 3" one in my plumbing box. Just the thing for blowing a DBP to smithereens!

http://www.petersenproducts.com/100-0_pipe_plug.aspx
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:09 PM   #5
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SteveC7010, Howdy;

Be careful where ya aim that thing...
might put your eye out if your not careful ...

hankaye
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:45 AM   #6
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My life has been spent in the Crapper for many years. (Plumbing and maintenance) I would be willing to bet that there is something that did not pass through the human body and TP in that pipe. Please ..... no requests for photos to back up my theory even though they are available.
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC7010 View Post
So, to fix it, first get a mop handle or some other sturdy pole that's about an inch in diameter. Prop open the toilet flapper valve and stick it down in there and begin to bust it up with a stirring motion. Icky job?
One correction to this part.... have the teenage girls get the mop handle. After all, the after camping cleanup is all part of the adventure.
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:16 AM   #8
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One correction to this part.... have the teenage girls get the mop handle. After all, the after camping cleanup is all part of the adventure.


The 'after camping cleanup' seems to only be my adventure around here. As far as that goes the 'before camping preparation' seems to be my adventure also.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:22 PM   #9
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JD_Moe, Howdy;

I'll attenpt to be as 'delicate' as possiable.
In your orig. post you mentioned teenaged girls,
plurial, also there is a wife..... are thier 'cycles' syncronized ???
Could be a blockage due to female 'sanitary items'.
Those 'items' shouldn't be discarded into the blacktank any
more then into the commode at home...
Sorry, hadn't been mentioned thought it might turn on a light...

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Old 05-31-2012, 12:29 PM   #10
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Yeap, I thought about it and I have a feeling he thought about it too, but you know they will say they never would do that (halo)
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:04 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by hankaye View Post
JD_Moe, Howdy;

I'll attenpt to be as 'delicate' as possiable.
In your orig. post you mentioned teenaged girls,
plurial, also there is a wife..... are thier 'cycles' syncronized ???
Could be a blockage due to female 'sanitary items'.
Those 'items' shouldn't be discarded into the blacktank any
more then into the commode at home...
Sorry, hadn't been mentioned thought it might turn on a light...

hankaye
That is what I meant by an object that had not passed through a human body. This is a frequent warning around marine toilets. Perhaps I was too delicate.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:04 PM   #12
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When we had these problems on board ship ( Navy) we cleared them with a 1-1/2" fire hose and straight nozzle. There was nothing left in that line when I was done. Do you have access to a fire truck?????
I hate it when threads take on a life of there own but this one is already in the toilet so... HT eh? I was on one of the first ships to have women, the USS Cape Cod. It was discovered rather quickly that the piping could not handle certain items and resulted in some serious back ups.
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:44 PM   #13
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lol, well honestly guys we were told that they were flushable....they so lied.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:48 PM   #14
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azlee56, Howdy;

My opinion is that a rumor was started by an out-of-work
plummer. After the rumor that 'certin items' were flushable got some traction
his business became very succsful. Think (I know, it's my weak point),
the company was named Rotur Router or something like that...

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Old 05-31-2012, 09:52 PM   #15
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roto router may be the answer
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:04 PM   #16
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Howdy All;

In all seriousness, if the clog still presists, ya might call this guy. He may (or not), have one of his franchisees near your location.

http://www.allprowaterflow.com/

Sort of a power wash system for RV tanks and similur such things

I have no financial connection to him or any of his franchisees...

hankaye
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Old 06-17-2012, 04:59 PM   #17
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I think "teenage girls" was enough to imply there were certain things that were, but never should have been, stuffed down that toilet.

After a few failed attempts with the tissue digestor, we got it. Our lesson with multiple attempts is to be patient and allow it time to work on a closed tank.

Looking back, I think we had a compilation of mistakes but the two largest ones were: 1) not educating guests how to use an RV toilet and 2) allowing the black tank to dry out which made unclogging it considerably more difficult.

I believe our particular fver has two 45 degree bends in the tube to the black tank. What a marvelous design.
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Old 06-17-2012, 08:15 PM   #18
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JD_Moe, Howdy;

Thanks for the follow-up. Glad (not as much as you and your family),
that you've got the problem resolved...
Have a happy Summer.

hankaye
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:46 PM   #19
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Angry Cougar X-Lite toilet problems

I have the same issues on a 2013X-lite cougar--There were NO teenagers involved, the toilet stopped up 4th time out due to the "PYRAMID" but the toilet empties into the shallow end of the tank and no standing liquid there to break up things. I'm dealing with Keystone on this and I may end up in the courts! The toilet piepe need to empty into the deep end where there is liquid available to keep things moving. There are a lot of things that keystone could have done to improve their unit but didn't.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:02 AM   #20
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DAVANZ,

First of all, welcome to the Keystone Forum. Most of us here are well satisfied with our RV and use them regularly without any significant problem. Some owners have issues or problems, especially with a new RV, but Keystone has almost always worked with owners to help resolve any problems. I'm sure that by working with your dealer, you too will find a solution to your problem.

I was looking through the list of 2013 Cougar XLite models and didn't find a floorplan for your 33RBS. Keystone only lists a 21RBS, 28RBS and 29RBS. Is yours a new model not yet listed or ???? The reason I was looking for a floorplan was to see how the tank would be arranged in your subfloor. There are two schools of thought about tank draining, but first one must realize that the tank must drain to the dump valve and outlet pipe. With that said, the two thoughts are: 1: The toilet must dump so that the contents move away from the toilet area. This helps prevent a pyramid from forming. Liquid helps move the solid contents if the RV is stationary and there is no motion from travel to help spread the contents. 2: Charging the black tank with an initial amount of water will help provide the tank with enough water to help move the solids away from the toilet dumping areaa.

There are a number of things that can produce the dreaded pyramid. First and as you've identified is the amount of liquid in the tank. Also, the amount of paper used, the type of paper used, the amount of water flushed along with solids, whether the tank valve is closed to maintain the liquid charge, motion to help disburse the solids. The list goes on, but hopefully you can see that there are things the user can do (or shouldn't do) that affect how much solid remains at or under the toilet discharge site of the tank.

You should gain a bit of comfort by realizing that your RV is not the only one of that model and if other owners aren't having that same problem, it's not a design flaw, rather an issue other than the engineering of where the toilet discharges into the tank that's causing the problem you're having. While there may be an installation issue where your tank was not installed correctly, most likely the dealer and Keystone can help you resolve the problem. Good luck.

Other than the toilet pyramid you're having, how do you ilke your 33RBS?
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