Can My Tundra Handle a Cougar 29BHL?

[MRobSr]

Hi everyone. I’m new to the forum and a newbie, soon to be, RV owner as well. Rented class A’s a few times and have done a lot of towing, but nothing that’s 9,000lbs+ before. Am about to take the plunge and buy a new Cougar 5th wheel; the 2024, 29BHL.

The truck I’ve got is a 2023, Toyota Tundra, iForce Max, twin turbo hybrid, 4x4. I’ve learned the towing capacity numbers are going to be close so have done everything I know of to make sure I’m going to be ok with that rig.

Would really appreciate it if some vets out there would help me check the numbers…

Here’s what I think I know…
Tundra -
GCWR: 17,770
Curb weight: 5,490
Max trailer weight: 11,330
5th wheel pin weight 1,700

29BHL -
Dry weight: 8,360
Carrying capacity: 2,655
Max weight: 11,015
Hitch: 1,610

Have 5,000 airbags installed on the truck so leveling the bed shouldn’t be a problem but know that’s not the whole story. Have heard airbags don’t really increase the trucks weight maximums but unsure. Any thoughts on that?

Looking for some insights. Please share your thoughts.
Thanks so much!

[flybouy]

The general rule for 5th wheel trailer pin weight is 23% of trailer gvw. So , 11,015 x .23 = 2,533 lbs. Now add approximately 300 lbs for the hitch and your up to 2,833 lbs. This is before you put anyone or anything in the truck.

The important number that you have ommited for your Tundra is the gvw or the max carrying capacity. But let's assume you'll want to take other people in the truck, maybe some tools or toys in the bed so let's add another 300 lbs to that load. Now you're taxing that truck with over 3,000 lbs. To carry. Then there's the wind to consider of a 12' tall, 33' long wind sail pushing you sideways.

I don't want to rain on your dream but the Tundra is just not up to the task. That trailer should be towed by a capable 3/4 ton truck that's properly equipped with E rated tires, HD suspension, and a drive train and gear ratio that's conducive to healing that much weight.

[MRobSr]

Really appreciate you taking the time to respond, thank you. Readily admit I have a lot to learn, but let me ask a question. Where does the .23 calculation come from? First time hearing that. How does the pin weight number provided by cougar figure in? Thanks very much.

[markcee]

The brochure weights are based on an empty trailer. Rule of thumb is to base your calculations off of the trailer's GVWR (how much it can weigh when fully loaded), this way, you are calculating for a 'worst case' scenario and there are no surprises.

23% of trailer GVWR is the accepted 'rule of thumb' for calculating the pin weight on a 5th wheel (it's 13% for a travel trailer). As stated, you must also add the weight of the hitch itself to that, plus weight of all occupants that will be in the truck and the weight of any ancillary gear/equipment.

What does this all add up to?

Compare this figure to the cargo carrying (payload) capacity stamped on the driver's side door pillar of your truck (yellow/white sticker). Exceed this figure and you've exceeded the GVWR of your Tundra. Unfortunately, I think you will find that you will be over by hundreds of pounds.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by MRobSr

Really appreciate you taking the time to respond, thank you. Readily admit I have a lot to learn, but let me ask a question. Where does the .23 calculation come from? First time hearing that. How does the pin weight number provided by cougar figure in? Thanks very much.

First your trailer is 11K lbs fully loaded. 23 percent is the number that has been arrived at by experienced campers (5th wheel) who have taken their rigs over scales. Your number might be one or two percentage points over or under 23 percent. You can plan on 2530 lbs pin weight. The Keystone published pin weights are for a trailer leaving the assembly line and not fitted with many items and is basically a fantasy.

Now head over to your truck and open the door. It will have a yellow placard giving you your payload. It will be around 2000 lbs. So when you add passengers, gear and weight of your hitch to your pin weight, you will north of 3000 lbs. WAY TOO HEAVY for a Toyota. Plan to get a towing vehicle with the appropriate payload else be unsafe and legally in if in a crash. Insurance and LEOs will check these things possibly.

[jsb5717]

Originally Posted by MRobSr

Really appreciate you taking the time to respond, thank you. Readily admit I have a lot to learn, but let me ask a question. Where does the .23 calculation come from?

It's become an accepted standard. Unless you actually weigh the trailer for the true loaded pin weight you need to do some estimating. The empty weights will tell you absolutely nothing. You'll need to work with loaded weights. The GVWR of the 5th wheel is the starting point for the math. Some will use 20%, others 25%. 23% is a good average to get you into the ballpark of the weight you'll be loading onto your truck.

Tow weights (how much weight a truck will pull) are the ones touted by the truck manufactures, but it's actually payload (how much weight a truck can carry) that is the gotcha.

We all know it sucks when your dream will cost you more than you hoped, but this forum tries to press the issue of safety first. Losing control of your rig due to inadequate weight management makes for a pretty bad day.

There's a ton of experience here so ask away.

[sourdough]

The .23 comes from an average of loaded trailers weights (scaled) and what is transferred to the pin. Too light the trailer becomes squirrely; to heavy the truck does the same. The gvwr is used because people load them up to the gills thinking they are "traveling light" - many are over their trailer gvwr.

Toyota should make a HD truck vs trying to make the Tundra look like one. Don't get me wrong, I own a Toyota (4runner) and they make great vehicles....just not HD tow vehicles - which is what a 5th wheel requires. As was mentioned look inside the driver door for the payload/carrying capacity sticker. Since you have the iForce Max you either have the Limited or 1794 editions. Payloads are listed from 1574 to 1740. Figure 1600. As was pointed out the pin weight of the trailer will far exceed the payload/gvwr of the truck - it's a 1/2 ton truck. 1/2 ton trucks and 5th wheels don't mix unless you have a very small 5th wheel or a very special 1/2 ton (very few and very rare). The pin weights Keystone puts on their brochures/website are from bare bones trailers with nothing put on them - they have no relationship to reality.

As a note on the Tundra and 5th wheels; my DB had a new Tundra he loved (nice fender flares...looked "tough") so bought a mid sized Rockwood (32'?) 5th wheel. Towed the trailer a couple of times then called me to tell me he had bought a new HD Ford Power Stroke - the Toyota was wonderful but just couldn't handle the trailer....he LOVED the Ford.

[MRobSr]

You guys are great. Thanks for the super info. Mine is the Limited so the 1740 is the right number. Just checked the door placard and it states "Combined weight of occupancy and cargo should never exceed 1,355 pounds". Wow, how come? Is that because of the tires? Can that be increased by swapping out tires? Took a pic of the placard. Is there a way to upload a jpeg along with this reply?

[MRobSr]

Safety first. Indeed! Thank you.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by MRobSr

You guys are great. Thanks for the super info. Mine is the Limited so the 1740 is the right number. Just checked the door placard and it states "Combined weight of occupancy and cargo should never exceed 1,355 pounds". Wow, how come? Is that because of the tires? Can that be increased by swapping out tires? Took a pic of the placard. Is there a way to upload a jpeg along with this reply?

Payload capacity can't be increased over what is stated in your driver door frame. Adding heavier tires, airbags, etc, DECREASE payload as they add weight to the occupancy and cargo. Find yourself a one ton truck if youi have been bitten by the camping bug. Don't bother with a 3/4 ton as they are the same size, typically about the same price and have less payload than a one ton truck. Some 3/4 ton trucks coming out these days have excellent payload so check before you buy. The right truck will say Ford, Chevy (or GMC) or Ram.

[MRobSr]

I'm bummed. But better bummed than in a ditch... If I switch to a trailer, how does that change the math?

[jsb5717]

Originally Posted by MRobSr

I'm bummed. But better bummed than in a ditch... If I switch to a trailer, how does that change the math?

The overall principals are the same. The only difference is the calculated pin weight. For travel trailers you would use 15% of the trailer GVWR. It would be a small trailer.

As stated, it's not just the pin weight, it's the sail factor of the trailer, light duty truck, and high winds. There are many here who have experienced white-knuckled driving when it feels like the tail is wagging the dog. Again...not fun.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by MRobSr

I'm bummed. But better bummed than in a ditch... If I switch to a trailer, how does that change the math?

Just sub out 13%-15% for the 23% and use 100 lbs for the weight of the hitch itself, instead of 300.

Your payload differs from the brochure 1740 as all truck's are not equal. Option load, trim level, cab configuration all contribute to payload cap.

Payload capacity is simply curb weight subtracted from GVWR so it will be unique to every vehicle.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by MRobSr

You guys are great. Thanks for the super info. Mine is the Limited so the 1740 is the right number. Just checked the door placard and it states "Combined weight of occupancy and cargo should never exceed 1,355 pounds". Wow, how come? Is that because of the tires? Can that be increased by swapping out tires? Took a pic of the placard. Is there a way to upload a jpeg along with this reply?

I was afraid of that. Why the lower ratings as compared to the website, brochures and ads? They don't want real life to inhibit sales; same as that pin weight you saw on the Keystone website - little numbers on pin weight mean a smaller truck can tow it and larger numbers on a truck payload means the field is open to larger trailers....even though they are both deceptive advertising. The other think they never tell you on a vehicle is that they give you the max possible payload in ads/brochures from a stripped down, bare bones truck. Every doo dad that you add (a Limited has a lot); power seats, sunroof, larger stereo, leather, captains seats, fancy wheels/tires - ALL of it detracts from that brochure payload. So in your case it went from 1740 to 1355 figuring the doo dads weighed an additional 385lbs. - happens on every truck from every manufacturer. It's a blatant attempt to misguide folks into buying bigger trailers and/or smaller trucks than they should simply to increase sales.

[wiredgeorge]

The truck in the brochure had the smallest and lightest gas engine, 2 wheel drive, lowest gee-gaw package and standard cab and was equipped with the packages that beefed up suspension. You don't own that truck. If you need a bunkhouse model, also keep in mind that much over 25-26' long will not be fun to tow with your light truck. Personally, if you are really set on camping in a comfy bunkhouse, your truck is the short pole in the tent.

Bumper pulll hitch weights are generally 13 percent of the gross weight of the trailer. Light trucks also struggle with longer trailers so the shorter the better. Again, the Keystone hitch weights are a fantasy.

[jxnbbl]

+1 on the 'brochure' vs actual numbers. When we bought our first camper in 2020 I had a 1/2 ton ram and actually bought our pull behind with that truck determining it would handle it. But then found this site and figured out that we had to 'pack light' and not much in the truck as we would never get above the total load weight in the trailer and it put 15% of that 'packed weight' onto the payload.

2 weeks before our first trip ever (a little over 1600 miles one way), I took a 3/4 Ram with Cummins for a test drive at the dealer to get lunch as the service department were completing recall work and a few maintenance items prior to the trip. Sales called me and at 5pm they gave be an unbelievable deal on both ends and I went on that trip with a new truck.

When truck shopping - diesel is great for torque, but takes a good 500# off the payload. Base trucks are what they list, but add that extra capacity fuel tank and fill it up....you've just taken another 175# off that payload. However, I would never buy a tow vehicle with a long trailer unless it was diesel due to the "modern" gas station configurations and difficult access.

Last roll forward time, just as everyone stated in here. We now tend to bring more than we need as our trips are all very long and there is a variety of activities/climates/etc. We looked a the Keystone and Grand Design that fell into exactly the slot of the one you are looking at and determined our 3/4 Ram was not big enough. It could handle it but only *if* we put a lot of thought into our packing.

This fall due to a sale and a call from our 2020 salesman we repeated the scenario with the truck purchase first, the 5th wheel will come in the next year or two.

[NH_Bulldog]

As others have said, the Tundra is nowhere near up to the task, and it sounds like you understand that so I am not going to beat that horse. For what its worth, we have a deposit on a 29BHL and the numbers work for our 3/4 ton, but even then only because of factory upgrades that give us some cushion in the numbers.

Our current trailer - a 240BH, is 28’ 6” long and 10’ 6” high and a 7,000 lb.GVWR. It was a bit much for our previous long wheelbase 1/2 ton truck with max towing package (plenty of power and capacity, but handling comfort was terrible). If you want to keep the truck, I would suggest that a trailer of this size would be the absolute maximum that could be attempted with a Tundra, but something smaller would be better, maybe a hybrid?

[jxnbbl]

Originally Posted by NH_Bulldog

As others have said, the Tundra is nowhere near up to the task, and it sounds like you understand that so I am not going to beat that horse. For what its worth, we have a deposit on a 29BHL and the numbers work for our 3/4 ton, but even then only because of factory upgrades that give us some cushion in the numbers...

Just adding as you have two posts where one says the 3/4 ton just made it and another 3/4 ton works out fine. The details of these two comments so they are not confusing....

You have to look at our signatures. I bet the Ford 250 has about a 1000 pounds more payload than my former Ram 2500. I just know this because of this forum and looking at various options.

[cougar23]

Don't feel like you are the only one in this pickle. I had a Ford f150 with tow package which pulled a Forest River Gray Wolf 31 ft. long trailer just fine.
Sometime later we decided we wanted a 5th wheel. Went to Camping World and liked a Keystone Cougar which was rated towable with a 1/2 ton truck. Sales lady stated pin weight was 1100 Lbs. We bought the camper and towed it home with my F150. Before we used the camper I wanted to verify the pin weight and cargo capacity of my truck. I have a tongue weight scale which I had used with our travel trailers. I stacked blocks with the scale under the 5th wheel pin, raised all of the jacks and got a pin weight of 1600 Lbs. This was with a empty trailer. This was already over the cargo capacity of my truck.
I ended up trading my F150, which I really liked, for a Ford F250 which had a cargo capacity double the F150. Since I have always owned Ford's, I cannot compare cargo capacity to other brands. In the Ford lineup some F250 trucks have a greater capacity than F350 one ton trucks. It all depends on the trim and engine. I like my XL F250 but I liked my old F150 better.

[JBM3M]

From experience towing bumper and 5th with 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1 ton Ford diesel, not all the same trailer, but principals of weight are similar. The 1/2 ton was sort of 'driven' by the trailer, sway was an issue after bumps. The 3/4 solved the sway, but seemed saggy (even with airbags) over hard highway bumps, and the 1 ton was no issue, it was like driving without a trailer. I just did a trip up I-15/I-84 and some of the road in Salt Lake City was very rough. The 1 ton didn't even notice it, no swaying at all.



The driving vehicle needs to, in my humble opinion be twice what is minimal which is 1/2 ton for the given 5th wheel. It can be done but is going to keep you on your toes every mile. ( Many years ago I towed a 3500# travel trailer with a Nissan pickup, not the big version they have now. It scared the F*** out of me and swore I would never take that risk again. I did get there safe somehow.)


It is your stuff, so you choose what safety margin you want.