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Old 05-11-2012, 02:02 PM   #1
perryt
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Trailer Brakes Weak?

I have a Cougar 292RKS fifth wheel. I'm thinking I might have a brake problem. I'm towing with a 2011 3500 Silverado with the integrated trailer brake controller.

I have adjusted all the trailer brakes but I cannot seem to get the brakes to the point of lock up even with the controller at its maximum setting. The brakes definitely are engaging but don't seem to be applying hard enough.

Any thoughts about where I might look for the cause?

Thanks.

Perry
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:13 PM   #2
f6bits
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If you pull the breakaway pin while parked (batteries hooked up), what happens if you pull forward?

I know that controllers show how much current is going to the brakes, but I’m not sure how it arrives at that number. How much current is it showing going to the brakes?
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:14 PM   #3
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Do you have the EZ-Lube wheel bearings? If so, they might have been greased without rotating the wheel. This might cause the bearing cup in the back to fail, and thus drip grease into the brake drum. Meaning that your brake shoes would be covered in grease.

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:17 PM   #4
perryt
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Ill try pulling the breakaway pin and see what happens.

The integrated controller does not have a current indicator so I'd have to hook up an external meter to find out. What kind of current should I expect?

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:26 PM   #5
perryt
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I do have the ez lube bearings. In fact that its exactly what lead me down this path. One of the grease seals had been damaged at the factory (metal part was dented) and when I greased the bearings I contaminated the linings on that wheel.

I replaced the linings and adjusted all the brakes. I don't think any of the other wheels have any grease contamination but honestly I haven't pulled them all. I discovered the one that had leaked by seeing the grease soaked lining thorough the adjustment hole. The other the wheels look dry. This is where i'm at now.

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Old 05-11-2012, 03:00 PM   #6
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Either the Keystone manual or the Dexter Axle manual (I forget which) mentions that you may not necessarily be able to lock the wheels depending on the size of the brakes, weight of the trailer, etc., so you may not necessarily have a problem. I don't think it is lining contamination as that should affect only the contaminated wheel (unless all are, possible but unlikely.)
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:42 PM   #7
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I had the same problem and found out I was losing voltage because the wire on the trailer was too small causing a voltage drop. I replaced all the wiring from the junction box at the front all the way back to each magnet. The factory wiring was 14 ga and according to dexter axle was minimum at best for the length of trailer I had. I changed it all out to 10 ga which is a little over kill but its what I had laying around the house. I had an increase in voltage of 2 volts at each magnet. It made a tremendous difference.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:39 PM   #8
Alpinecummin
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I just had my brakes replaced yesterday because of grease seals leaking and contaminated the brake shoes. I never knew the brakes were defective until I took the 5th wheel in to have the bearings packed. This is the first time the bearings have been serviced in over 6,000 miles or since the unit came out of the factory. I believe the seals where defective from the factory brcause I have never noticed any change in the way the camper slows down to a stop since I bought the camper. I have been told that trailer brakes should not lock up because you could loose control of your truck and trailer if the brakes lock up. In the past 12 months I have had the brakes replaced on a 20 foot car trailer and now the camper, and the brakes will not lock up on either unit.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:57 PM   #9
therink
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My brakes don't lock up on asphalt either with my integrated controller. I am thinking that it is due to the 12k weight of my fiver. I will say though that the brakes do work well though. I have no problem stopping and the trailer brakes are grabbing.
I would also like to hear what others are saying about how their gm integrated controller behaves with a heavy trailer.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:26 PM   #10
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The "lock the brakes" test of a trailer and brake controller is supposed to be done on gravel, not asphalt or concrete, and at about 15 MPH. As Steve just said, the heavier trailer pretty much precludes a true lock-up at that speed on asphalt.

I could lock up the brakes on my 25' Sunline (5,500# GVWR) with no problems, even at low speed on the highway. Had turn off the boost when towing in 30 MPH zones because they would lock up so easily.

I am using the same Prodigy controller with the Cougar and so far, no lockups. But then I haven't towed it in stop and go traffic either.

I have a friend who did a very precise upgrade of the brake wiring on his trailer. He used larger gauge wire and measured it in identical lengths for each brake. He said the improvement in braking was significant. It's on my list of things to modify this summer.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinecummin View Post
I have been told that trailer brakes should not lock up because you could loose control of your truck and trailer if the brakes lock up. In the past 12 months I have had the brakes replaced on a 20 foot car trailer and now the camper, and the brakes will not lock up on either unit.
You should not lock the brakes up but... as far as saying the trailer brakes should "not lock up", I would question. I have a Prodigy controller and I have never had a trailer that would not lock up if I sent enough power to it.
Not sure about the GM integrated controller and how it works but I can't imagine a controller that you couldn't adjust.
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Old 05-12-2012, 03:14 AM   #12
therink
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FWIW, I keep my gain set at 9.0 all the time with my 12k fiver. What gain setting do others use versus weight?
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:04 AM   #13
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Our trailer weighs about 7200 LBS ready to travel and we run the brake controller on 7 or 7.5 (depending on driving conditions) When we are in stop and go traffic, I run it at 7.5 to help reduce the chucking. It seems to help keep the trailer a bit "tighter" behind the truck. Normally, in highway driving I run it on 7. I'm really not sure there's that much difference between the two settings, but it makes me "think" I'm still in control.....

Our brakes normally don't lock up on the trailer (using the Ford integrated controller). Last summer, in West Virginia, we were leaving a campground with a very tight right turn at the entrance. We were going maybe 5MPH and suddenly the truck stopped as if I had slammed on the brakes. It literally "threw" us forward against our seat belts.

After "cleaning up a bit" from the sudden stop and resulting shock, I got out to explore. When I checked, there were skid marks behind all 4 trailer wheels as if they had locked up and slid rather than rolled about 5' or so. I found the break-away switch pulled out and the wire hanging off the hitch release handle. Apparently, I had not noticed that the wire was wrapped around the hitch and somewhat shorter than the normal loop. When I turned that tight corner, it was just enough to pull the pin on the break-away switch and engage the trailer brakes.

Since then, I've learned that (on my trailer at leastl), the brake controller in the truck won't engage the trailer brakes enough to cause them to lock up (they do engage enough to stop the trailer and truck without truck brakes) but the break-away switch literally locks up the wheels and they won't turn when engaged. I haven't pursued this with Ford, but I'd suspect that the anti-lock system in the truck (which is interfaced with the brake controller) may prevent lockup of the trailer wheels as well as the truck braking system.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:19 AM   #14
hankaye
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Howdy All;

One of the things I do before I pull out (that includes pit stops), is
activate the 'manual' function on the controller (aka; Pull check), and apply
a small amount of pressure with the fuel/gas pedal. If I don’t go anywhere tells me 2 things,
*5th wheel is still locked and
*Trailer breaks work.
Used to do that when I drove 'over the road', and works for me still.

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Old 05-12-2012, 07:23 PM   #15
Halibutman214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therink View Post
FWIW, I keep my gain set at 9.0 all the time with my 12k fiver. What gain setting do others use versus weight?
Never above 4 even when pulling my flatbed with my tractor which weighs in a little over 9000. I think if I went any higher the trailer would be stopping the truck.
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:23 PM   #16
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I have a Maxx Brake controller that works off of the brake fluid pressure in the master cylinder brake line. I have had several brake controllers over the years and this by far the best brake controller I have ever had. I can hook to my 20 foot car trailer when it is empty (3,000 lbs) and then load it to a gross weight of 12,000 lbs and never touch the controller. I can disconnect from the car trailer and hook up to the 5er and never touch the controller. The master cylinder brake line pressure converts the pressure to electricall current and sends the required voltage to the electric brakes on what ever is being towed.
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:55 AM   #17
perryt
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Well I finally got a chance to play with the brakes again yesterday. I hooked up the trailer and headed out to a deserted road where I could exercise the brakes. To my surprise the first time I applied them with the manual slider they locked right up at 35mph. Reducing the power level from 10 to 8 kept them from locking up. I drove about 20 miles on back roads and after the brakes had warmed up some more I ended up reducing the power to 5 or so.

At this point I have conclude one of two things are going on here.

1) I have an intermittently poor connection somewhere in the brake wiring or ground. I think this is the likely scenario as it seems like this problem tends to come and go.

2) I *think* that on the previous trip I had the fresh water tank full, approximately 500lbs of extra weight. Perhaps this pushed the weight of the trailer over the point where the brakes cannot be applied to the point of locking up.

I'll be at a full-hookup campground this weekend so I won't need a full tank of fresh water so I'll see if the brakes are consistent each time I hitch it up. I'll be dry camping over Memorial Day weekend so I'll be filling the fresh water tank and we'll see if the behavior is as I suspect.
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