Should We Advocate Towing Overloaded ???

[buzzcop63]

Larry337:
I think all the above comments have value and so does what Larry has added. What kind of problems can this Forum help eliminate to make RVing more fun and safer by knowing the numbers, by weighing your truck and trailer by reading the different subjects, here are just a few!
White knuckle driving each time a truck passes you
Going up hills on the side of the road at 25 to 30MPH
Going down hill with sweat poring off your face trying to slow down!
Having tires blow out because they are too old
Having tires blow out because your Trailer is too heavy
Having tires blow out because you drive too fast
Having tries blow out because they do not have correct PSI
Their are a ton more and if we beat to death one topic, so be it, it gives us an outlet to talk about what we enjoy doing and it helps those who are not as interested in the details they just want to mount up and go!

[C130]

What's weird to me is some of the most anal people I know will tow their 5th wheel thousands of pounds overweight and then tell me it "pulls great" and they can't even tell it's back there. I've yet to pull any trailer of any significant size and not be able to tell its back there. I have some pilot friends pulling some humongous toy haulers (over 41 feet) with F250's and a 350 SRW. They are some of the most particular, by the book, anal guys I know but they will act like I'm crazy when I tell them how overweight they are. Honestly, I think it's the pilot in them and they just won't admit to making a mistake which is not uncommon in my career field. I also think a lot of people buy the 3/4 ton diesels and just assume they can pull anything. I know that's what I thought when I bought my F250 in 2011.

I make a living at my airline by checking and evaluating our pilots and having to make sure they uphold our (airline and FAA) required standards and regulations. I'm used to dealing with the government and the thousands of rules and regulations in probably the most regulated industry in the world. One thing I've learned is our government likes to change their focus based on any one hot issue that might arise and it might change at any time, any day. One major accident affecting the right person and their family and the government could wreak havoc on the RV industry and the large trailers being pulled and lack of any real regulation.

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

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My final thought: Should the forum and its individual members accept the responsibility for what goes wrong by stating that it's OK to tow overloaded? ]

As a long time forum member, I think I have a responsibility to help a member to make a wise choice. Towing overloaded is not a wise choice. We can debate all day and night what constitutes being "overloaded". Is 100 lbs acceptable? Is 200 lbs okay? Is being "close" alright? How close is close?
How many times have we heard, "I'm close but I should be okay." Maybe. Maybe not.

Helping would include providing him with the basic tools so that he can use them to come to an informed decision. In the end, it is his/her decision to make and what that person does with all the numbers and all of the advice is out of my control. I am not responsible for the decision someone else makes.

Some members who ask "Will my truck tow this?" or "What do I need to tow my new Raptor 415"? have never towed a thing in their life and are genuinely interested in finding the best and safest match. We are here to help them in their search and to give them the best advice possible.

Other members already have a truck and have just bought "X" RV and look for confirmation from us. "Will it be okay?", they ask. Some of these folks have been told by the RV salesman that you'll have no problems. Others have friends who have the same or similar setups and "have had no issues whatsoever". Or they have seen the same RV being pulled by "Y" truck all the time. So what's the problem? I see all sorts of people that are probably overloaded. They're doing it, nothing's happened to them so it must be ok. And then we have others who get really upset when they read on here that they are "overweight". It's those darn forum "weight police" again --- why don't they mind their own business??

It has been said that being overweight is not a big deal in the big picture or that it is a non issue. Instead of spending too much time trying to encourage folks to stay within the limits, we might be better off devoting our time and energy on promoting safe driving habits. These are extremely important factors "in the big picture" of driving any vehicle - including RV's. Any responsible RV owner would ensure that safe driving is being practiced as well as ensuring that his rig is not overloaded. They go together and do make up "the big picture".

Short answer to John's question --- no. (Why did it take me so long to get here?)

[Hansel]

Well I will chime in on this and hopefully not get punished for my comment or mind set, I have a 01 F-250 with a 8800lb GVWR but after taking it too the scale's is came in right at 7700lbs so that leaves me 1100lbs of payload (pin weight) I've researched on-line at the 1/2 ton towable 5th wheels and even those will be pushing the limit's but I might have found one that has come in just under 8000lbs with the features we want. I know it's not an exact science because those posted weight's can and usually are higher but let's just say if I go over the 8800lbs GVWR say by 200-300lbs I think might be acceptable, I mean I'm not or never would go crazy and overload the truck by like 1000lbs but I don't see a huge concern with a few hundred pounds. I've seen more than my share of RV's (5th wheels) that the truck is obviously over weight with the headlights pointing in the sky.

[chuckster57]

This is a touchy subject with me. Since I am the guy doing your walk through, showing you how everything works in your new fiver that weighs 12,500 pounds without anything in it, and is 39' long. I ask " have you RV'd before?" The answer is "No, never towed anything but a utility trailer to the dumps."

After 3 hours of sensory overload, I guide his 3/4 ton truck under the king pin and wish him well. I have been told by my boss " not our job to tell him he's overloaded, that's sales job."

[Desert185]

I worked for somebody like that once and was glad the day I left.

[mamawildbear]

You all are making me nervous with this overloaded talk. I would imagine that the main reason people might be driving on the edge (or over) their towing capacity is ignorance. I have no idea how to find a weigh station or how to use one. We've been towing for 5 years having no idea what anything weighed but until November we had a popup so the weights never got into the range to possibly matter so there was no need to know.

Now we have a TT and I am feeling dangerously ignorant but I'm making a plan. I followed all of your links and read up on everything so now know how to find a scale and the protocol used there.

So if I understand properly, I can pull up with the trailer and weigh just the truck (both with and without the weight distribution bars for comparison) and that can help me figure out the tongue weight. Somewhere I read that should be 10%-12% but I don't know 10-12% of what?

Then I can weigh everything to get the GCVW and compare that to the GCWR for my truck to find out if I am overloaded.

Finally I can weigh just the truck to get the GVW.
GCVW - GVW would be the weight of my loaded camper so I can make sure I haven't loaded it over its capacity as well.

Does that about sum it up? If this gives my hubby the excuse he needs to get a bigger truck, I'm going to have to come back here and kill you all because all he needs is one little excuse....

But one final question. I was always told to look at the GCWR for your vehicle and try not to have a GCVW over 75% of that. Is that reasonable? Too conservative? I would not want to exceed the GCWR but how close can I (or should I) get to that number? So that's a slight twist on your thread which asks is it ok to overload and I'm asking is it ok to fully load?

This is really putting my weekly Weight Watcher's weigh-ins into perspective (and yes, I'm slightly overloaded there as well). :0

[Hansel]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

This is a touchy subject with me. Since I am the guy doing your walk through, showing you how everything works in your new fiver that weighs 12,500 pounds without anything in it, and is 39' long. I ask " have you RV'd before?" The answer is "No, never towed anything but a utility trailer to the dumps."

After 3 hours of sensory overload, I guide his 3/4 ton truck under the king pin and wish him well. I have been told by my boss " not our job to tell him he's overloaded, that's sales job."

I witnessed a sales person telling a guy that a F-250 would tow this 40+ft 5th wheel that probably weighed in over 10K easy. Now he was or did look up the towing specs for a 2015 truck, but I made the comment of get the largest truck possible (F-450) that would be the only way I would be comfortable towing the huge beast of a 5th wheel we where in.

[{tpc}]

I'd like to know how one uses a states weigh scale (or if you can?), and how much might the charge be? There are no cat scales within an hour or so of me. I know of a scrap yard that has scales, but not sure if they are of the same type, and I'm a little leary that I might pick up a nail or something like that there.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by {tpc}

I'd like to know how one uses a states weigh scale (or if you can?), and how much might the charge be? There are no cat scales within an hour or so of me. I know of a scrap yard that has scales, but not sure if they are of the same type, and I'm a little leary that I might pick up a nail or something like that there.

There are two CAT scales in that area. One is about 28 miles away: Madco Truck Plaza I-94 & Exit 200 Romulus, MI and the other is about 30 miles away: Sunrise Store I-69, Exit 176 Capac, MI. You're right, neither is really "convenient" to Shelby Township, but you may find yourself heading in either direction on one of your camping trips.

To my knowledge, Michigan does not leave the scales operational when weigh stations are closed. The only other alternative I could suggest is either an auto salvage yard or a construction company that is involved in moving rock/gravel. They usually have a scale, but some don't offer weigh services to the public. Also, if their scale is like the ones at gravel pits around here, it will only be about 30' long, so you'd end up disconnecting, weighing everything separately and then trying to decipher what your weights are when hitched. It will work, but the CAT system is much better geared to a "clean weight" for the whole rig as it sits ready to tow......

[{tpc}]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

There are two CAT scales in that area. One is about 28 miles away: Madco Truck Plaza I-94 & Exit 200 Romulus, MI and the other is about 30 miles away: Sunrise Store I-69, Exit 176 Capac, MI. You're right, neither is really "convenient" to Shelby Township, but you may find yourself heading in either direction on one of your camping trips.

To my knowledge, Michigan does not leave the scales operational when weigh stations are closed. The only other alternative I could suggest is either an auto salvage yard or a construction company that is involved in moving rock/gravel. They usually have a scale, but some don't offer weigh services to the public. Also, if their scale is like the ones at gravel pits around here, it will only be about 30' long, so you'd end up disconnecting, weighing everything separately and then trying to decipher what your weights are when hitched. It will work, but the CAT system is much better geared to a "clean weight" for the whole rig as it sits ready to tow......

Thanks for the info JRTJH! I think what I may do is get the tongue weight scale and use that, just for a bit of piece of mind on that whole thing, and then next trip that brings me across one of these two stations I will weigh at the CAT there. We are taking one trip in June, which will be a longer trip headed to Niagra Falls, and we will be at likely max capacity for that trip with gear and occupants. So it should be the most worst case scenario I can imagine. There is another one we are thinking about in may that would be similar, and may run me across the Romulus one on the way into ohio.

For the record, when I say max capacity or worst case, I don't mean running up on the sticker limits...I just mean that I can't forsee an opportunity that I might have more stuff in the camper or people in the truck. So that should be a fairly accurate assessment of whether or not I am at where I need to be.

[x96mnn]

First, great post and great responses.

Personally I have towed over loaded by a lot and hated it. I have towed under but close and hated it. I have towed well under and love it, that's my compfort zone. Have close to 6000pds of payload available and 19000ish pds of towing, but the new horizons I am looking at is 21000 pds dry and it will come with a truck.

Is towing a couple pounds to 300 pounds over a huge issue? I think it handles poorly, I think you run at limited liability, can't say I wouldn't do it if I had to and depending my situation. If 300 is ok how about 301? If that's ok 302 has to be too? I will state I am not too concerned about those people, again they need to accept the limited liability but they are at the end of the day in the same boat as the guy with a250 and 1000 pds over. Same liability.

My opinion, towing over your weights is a liability. Today it may be a limited liability but it exists, with 3x the campers on the roads today it is just a matter of time that the right person, in the wrong place gets hit by the people who feel there are no rules. The outcome will be a more regulated industry.

"Should the forum and its individual members accept the responsibility for what goes wrong by stating that it's OK to tow overloaded? My answer: By no means would I suggest that response !!! "

I do not think a member could be held responsible, but after the successful affluenza defence, the right person put in a bad situation looking to share or leverage blame could very well try it. I have started to make it a point to use the terms, I would and I would not. Make it clear I am not them, only what I would do.

[jsmith948]

Thank you, John. This is a great thread with some really great posts/comments.
I absolutely agree that we should NOT advocate towing overloaded. Have I ever done so? Yes. Our first 'RV' was a 1972 C10 Chevy. Straight six with a three speed. 15" car tires. Bought it to tow our dune buggy to the coast. We slept in a tent. Upgraded to a used wilderness 8ft cab-over camper constructed of 3/4" plywood covered with aluminum. HEAVY camper, corvair powered dune buggy on a trailer with no brakes, extra tires/wheels, extra gas, parts, tools, firewood, water, food, etc.
But we were ok, had Helwig overloads and had changed to split-ring Dayton wheels with 7.50x15 nylon tires! Could not stop the thing !!!
Today we're a bit older and a little wiser. After many, many, many miles (about 2.5 million) in a semi, I have learned to load legal, drive the speed limit, and save a little for tomorrow!
Those of you who drive fast in overloaded rigs are simply gambling. Just sayin"

[larry337]

Originally Posted by jsmith948

Thank you, John. This is a great thread with some really great posts/comments.
I absolutely agree that we should NOT advocate towing overloaded. Have I ever done so? Yes. Our first 'RV' was a 1972 C10 Chevy. Straight six with a three speed. 15" car tires. Bought it to tow our dune buggy to the coast. We slept in a tent. Upgraded to a used wilderness 8ft cab-over camper constructed of 3/4" plywood covered with aluminum. HEAVY camper, corvair powered dune buggy on a trailer with no brakes, extra tires/wheels, extra gas, parts, tools, firewood, water, food, etc.
But we were ok, had Helwig overloads and had changed to split-ring Dayton wheels with 7.50x15 nylon tires! Could not stop the thing !!!
Today we're a bit older and a little wiser. After many, many, many miles (about 2.5 million) in a semi, I have learned to load legal, drive the speed limit, and save a little for tomorrow!
Those of you who drive fast in overloaded rigs are simply gambling. Just sayin"

I was going to add that today's tow vehicles are monsters compared to what we had 30-40 years ago, even 15-20 years ago. I remember when a Crown Victoria was considered a tow vehicle. The technology and performance are huge improvements. Better tires, brakes, anti sway features, exhaust brakes and on and on. I'll say again RV's as a whole are not the problems on today's highways. I'm on other forums too and I guess I just get tired of the same ole discussions, sometimes passionate if not even heated, over and over again. People will ask their questions and do what they want anyway. The majority of them eventually learn the same way we did. A driver knows when his rig is unsafe. Pride sometimes prevents him from admitting it but he knows. And next thing you know he has a bigger truck. No I do not think we should condone or endorse overloaded situations. A lot of times I just stay out of it but I read the answers for amusement. When someone asks the questions, provide the answers and let it go. Some people listen and learn some have to try it for themselves.

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by larry337

People will ask their questions and do what they want anyway. The majority of them eventually learn the same way we did. When someone asks the questions, provide the answers and let it go. Some people listen and learn some have to try it for themselves.

Larry -
You have made some very excellent points all of which pretty much sums up this discussion about overloaded rigs.
I think that you may have inadvertently omitted those folks who don't ask any questions. It's not because they don't care, they just don't know anything about towing and make incorrect assumptions. Just because they have "towed" a small utility trailer or little popup behind their truck, they assume that the truck should be able to tow their brand new 35 foot TT. Or they have a "truck". Trucks pull things - small things, big things. What's to ask?

But you are right. The fellow beating a dead horse below your post ....... what do they say about a picture being worth a 1000 words? Let it go. The horse is dead.

[larry337]

Originally Posted by Festus2

Larry -
You have made some very excellent points all of which pretty much sums up this discussion about overloaded rigs.
I think that you may have inadvertently omitted those folks who don't ask any questions. It's not because they don't care, they just don't know anything about towing and make incorrect assumptions. Just because they have "towed" a small utility trailer or little popup behind their truck, they assume that the truck should be able to tow their brand new 35 foot TT. Or they have a "truck". Trucks pull things - small things, big things. What's to ask?

But you are right. The fellow beating a dead horse below your post ....... what do they say about a picture being worth a 1000 words? Let it go. The horse is dead.

To prove your point, it looks as if mamawildbear learned something from this thread, which is s good thing. Carry on.

[Dave-Gray]

Originally Posted by mamawildbear

You all are making me nervous with this overloaded talk. I would imagine that the main reason people might be driving on the edge (or over) their towing capacity is ignorance. I have no idea how to find a weigh station or how to use one. We've been towing for 5 years having no idea what anything weighed but until November we had a popup so the weights never got into the range to possibly matter so there was no need to know.

Now we have a TT and I am feeling dangerously ignorant but I'm making a plan. I followed all of your links and read up on everything so now know how to find a scale and the protocol used there.

So if I understand properly, I can pull up with the trailer and weigh just the truck (both with and without the weight distribution bars for comparison) and that can help me figure out the tongue weight. Somewhere I read that should be 10%-12% but I don't know 10-12% of what?

Go to this webpage and download/print the correct worksheet for your situation. The worksheet will walk you through, step by step. It's the first step of a four step weighing plan at that website.