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Old 03-26-2015, 07:45 PM   #1
AkGuy
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Towing on snow and ice

What do you guys do when pulling a 30' toy hauler and snow and or icy conditions are encountered? About all I can think of is parking or putting chains on. Having a trailer pulling you back down a hill when traction is lost is a thrill I don't want to repeat.
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Old 03-26-2015, 07:59 PM   #2
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What do I think? DON'T. In ice and snow what is the first rig you see off the road--a Semi! There is nothing worse than a trailer pushing the tow vehicle down the road. Just get off the road and wait for it to thaw. Better yet, don't even leave wherever you are if you think you will encounter those conditions.
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Old 03-26-2015, 08:06 PM   #3
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What do I think? DON'T. In ice and snow what is the first rig you see off the road--a Semi! There is nothing worse than a trailer pushing the tow vehicle down the road. Just get off the road and wait for it to thaw. Better yet, don't even leave wherever you are if you think you will encounter those conditions.
Hahaha! That's so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond.
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Old 03-26-2015, 08:14 PM   #4
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If you Google "towing a travel trailer on ice and snow" you will see most recommend using chains on at least one trailer axle.

IMO, if it can be avoided I wouldn't do it, but seeing that you live in Alaska that's probably not an option all the time. I would chain up EVERY axle and proceed with caution. I see semi trucks with two trailers going over Donner summit with chains on all axles lots of times, and most of the vehicles "off the road" are NOT the trucks but the clowns in a hurry trying to pass them.
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Old 03-26-2015, 08:33 PM   #5
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What would I do Well I definitely would not be putting on chains because I would not be moving 1.) I would not leave anywhere if I knew its was going to snow and 2.) if caught on the road I would be getting off ASAP. Really do not even want to think about the RAPTOR either pushing me or pilling me down a hill
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Old 03-26-2015, 08:49 PM   #6
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I suppose the best way to approach it is, "If you have to, tow carefully, if you can avoid it, wait until the roads are plowed and the ice has been salted or has melted. I don't remember any reports of major damage this winter, but in the past couple of winters we've had at least 3, possibly more members who have had significant damage or total loss of their trailers and trucks while towing on icy roads.

There are a couple of old threads concerning towing in snow/ice and some of the hazards. Here's one:

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ghlight=Tunnel
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:35 AM   #7
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AKGuy,

Here is what I can share about towing in snow. I drive a semi, and I have never been in a ditch. I live along the shores of the Great Lakes and every night I pull doubles through rain, snow, sleet, fog, ice or whatever else mother nature throws at us here. We don't stop pulling trailers because of snow and if we did your grocery store shelves would be empty all winter. We also have whats known as lake effect snow so it can snow every day for a week and we just deal with it. I can't help you with chains because we don't use them east of the Mississippi. We have hills but nothing like the Rockies. My guess is if your talking snow that is measured in feet in steep mountains that require chains you probably don't want to be out there. But you can drive in snow.

It can and is done everyday...

However there certain nuances you learn along the way. And while you are learning there is a high degree of pucker factor. It takes great concentration and focus. When you are not used to it it will wear you out mentally and physically. Basically when wheels spin you slide, when wheels lockup you slide. Keep all wheels moving at the same speed. If you catch it early, which you can, you can save it rather easily, if you dont catch it in time, its virtually impossible to save it without luck. Its takes alot of experience to know when to apply more power, less power, more brake, less brake. Listen to the engine when powering for wheel spin, watch mirrors when braking for trailer slide. We drive hundreds of miles every night thru snowstorms rather confidently but I still remember the stress as a newbie. And I too am an old snowmobiler who has pulled 24 foot enclosed trailers thru massive blizards with a 4 wheel drive pickup. A lot of the basics are the same. Following distance is critical. Saving wheel spin is easy, but saving a slide relies on letting off the brakes,if you don't have room to stop you can't let off. People seem to think semis being so heavy are better in the snow and thats why they travel so fast. I would say my traction is "similar" to a 4 wheel drive pickup. Each situation is different. Depends on our weight. We can weigh anywhere from 35000 to 80000. Sometimes the weight helps, sometimes it hurts. It takes alot of traction to get 80000 pounds going up hill. The drivers behind the wheel are in most cases very experienced and highly skilled. The other thing is we're limited by hours of service. We can only drive 11 hours in a day. So if we can't maintain 50ish mph there's no point doing the run because we can't finish it anyway.

So should you go...

Depends on far, how bad is it, how much confidence do you have. I can tell you it CAN be done. I cant tell you if YOU should do it. My guess is you have more ability then you realize.

I want to choose my words carefully. I dont want to get you in a jam. There's plenty of reasons to not do it. I wouldn't think any less of someone who chose to stay home. Or tried it and turned around after a half hour. Going 20 mph will make for an awfully long trip and probobly not woth it. Another thing that can slow you down is visibility. If the snow is too thick or if your wipers are freezing you can't see. If you cant see, well you wont be going very fast. So IF you go hope you can travel at least 40 or so to make it worth while. As far as pulling a trailer goes it will stay behind you as long as you are pulling it. I've never seen a trailer just swing out for no reason while being pulled. It WILL swing out when braking, make sure your brake controller is adjusted evenly. When the trailer brakes lock up it will slide and you wont even know it unless you are looking in your mirror. If it does just let off the brakes and it will straighten right out. Remember, all wheels turning the same speed. In some cases you might need a little power to pull it back but thats not often. Do not use the brake controller to bring it back, it wont work. The weight of the trailer can actually help to stay straight. Imagine a rear wheel drive pickup, you apply too much power and the truck fishtails out from under you. But with a heavy trailer when you apply too much power the weight holds you back and your wheels spin but you stay straight, of course too much power and you can still fishtail. If you break traction just let off the fuel and it straightens right out. With 4 wheel drive a TV spinout is even less likely. But with an engine brake, or aggressive downshifting the weight of the trailer can push you sideways. I have let off the fuel and had the trailer start to push me in which case a little power will straighten it back out. There's so much I could talk about but I dont have the patience to write it and you'd probably get bored reading it. Snow doesnt change the basics of traction. Any speed junkie who's ever drove race cars, 4 wheelers, snowmobiles, dirt bikes etc pushes the limits of grip and traction. Mixing power and braking. The laws are the same on concrete, dirt, mud or snow. The difference is the end of grip and traction happens at a lot lower speed on snow then concrete. Race cars still slide and spin on concrete when traction is lost. They use the same principals to try and get it back. With visibility, light traffic, and no snow plows you could easily get down the road at a decent clip. But to get around these obstacles you may have to step out into the "brave" lane, you know, the one thats not plowed yet. So assuming you're getting down the interstate without too much trouble you still have the perils that go with off the interstate. Like ramps, inclined driveways, unplowed parking lots. Thats where the weight of the trailer can prevent you from getting where you need to go because you're stuck. 4 wheel drive is a huge advantage that semis dont have. If you park somewhere in deep snow, run your tires forward and backwards before you stop. Your tires are warm, believe it or not, so they will melt a little snow, and your weight will cause you to settle some, then you're tires end up in a small little valley that you cant pull out of because of the weight behind you. Again 4 wheel drive would probably make this a moot point. I'm probably not the right person to ask if you should do it because I know it can be done, but I have a couple million miles in a semi. Don't forget that you could do everything right and still get taken out by someone else. I drive in snow with very little stress but I have been there done that hundreds of times. Without that confidence it is extremely stressful handling on oversized rig in bad weather. Everyone has a different degree of ability, nerves, and risk acceptance, even amongst truck drivers. Safe travels to you. I hope I've helped you some.
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Old 03-27-2015, 11:00 AM   #8
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Here's a perfect example of when I should have left the day before when the weather report was calling for another 15" of snow, but instead I chose to stay and continue camping and hunting. I paid the price, it took me an entire day of digging, winching and digging out some more. I wont be doing that again

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Old 03-27-2015, 02:42 PM   #9
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Here's a perfect example of when I should have left the day before when the weather report was calling for another 15" of snow, but instead I chose to stay and continue camping and hunting. I paid the price, it took me an entire day of digging, winching and digging out some more. I wont be doing that again

Sorry to laugh at your misfortune but that's funny! I got stuck once in an unplowed parking lot pulling a 6000 lb snowmobile trailer. My day wasn't as hard as yours though, I just had to unload 4 snowmobiles to get out of it!
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:07 PM   #10
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Howdy All;

The following bears repeating ..... BEST I've heard it explained and worth
a re-read

Quote:
Originally Posted by larry337 View Post
AKGuy,

Here is what I can share about towing in snow. I drive a semi, and I have never been in a ditch. I live along the shores of the Great Lakes and every night I pull doubles through rain, snow, sleet, fog, ice or whatever else mother nature throws at us here. We don't stop pulling trailers because of snow and if we did your grocery store shelves would be empty all winter. We also have whats known as lake effect snow so it can snow every day for a week and we just deal with it. I can't help you with chains because we don't use them east of the Mississippi. We have hills but nothing like the Rockies. My guess is if your talking snow that is measured in feet in steep mountains that require chains you probably don't want to be out there. But you can drive in snow.

It can and is done everyday...

However there certain nuances you learn along the way. And while you are learning there is a high degree of pucker factor. It takes great concentration and focus. When you are not used to it it will wear you out mentally and physically. Basically when wheels spin you slide, when wheels lockup you slide. Keep all wheels moving at the same speed. If you catch it early, which you can, you can save it rather easily, if you dont catch it in time, its virtually impossible to save it without luck. Its takes alot of experience to know when to apply more power, less power, more brake, less brake. Listen to the engine when powering for wheel spin, watch mirrors when braking for trailer slide. We drive hundreds of miles every night thru snowstorms rather confidently but I still remember the stress as a newbie. And I too am an old snowmobiler who has pulled 24 foot enclosed trailers thru massive blizards with a 4 wheel drive pickup. A lot of the basics are the same. Following distance is critical. Saving wheel spin is easy, but saving a slide relies on letting off the brakes,if you don't have room to stop you can't let off. People seem to think semis being so heavy are better in the snow and thats why they travel so fast. I would say my traction is "similar" to a 4 wheel drive pickup. Each situation is different. Depends on our weight. We can weigh anywhere from 35000 to 80000. Sometimes the weight helps, sometimes it hurts. It takes alot of traction to get 80000 pounds going up hill. The drivers behind the wheel are in most cases very experienced and highly skilled. The other thing is we're limited by hours of service. We can only drive 11 hours in a day. So if we can't maintain 50ish mph there's no point doing the run because we can't finish it anyway.

So should you go...

Depends on far, how bad is it, how much confidence do you have. I can tell you it CAN be done. I cant tell you if YOU should do it. My guess is you have more ability then you realize.

I want to choose my words carefully. I dont want to get you in a jam. There's plenty of reasons to not do it. I wouldn't think any less of someone who chose to stay home. Or tried it and turned around after a half hour. Going 20 mph will make for an awfully long trip and probobly not woth it. Another thing that can slow you down is visibility. If the snow is too thick or if your wipers are freezing you can't see. If you cant see, well you wont be going very fast. So IF you go hope you can travel at least 40 or so to make it worth while. As far as pulling a trailer goes it will stay behind you as long as you are pulling it. I've never seen a trailer just swing out for no reason while being pulled. It WILL swing out when braking, make sure your brake controller is adjusted evenly. When the trailer brakes lock up it will slide and you wont even know it unless you are looking in your mirror. If it does just let off the brakes and it will straighten right out. Remember, all wheels turning the same speed. In some cases you might need a little power to pull it back but thats not often. Do not use the brake controller to bring it back, it wont work. The weight of the trailer can actually help to stay straight. Imagine a rear wheel drive pickup, you apply too much power and the truck fishtails out from under you. But with a heavy trailer when you apply too much power the weight holds you back and your wheels spin but you stay straight, of course too much power and you can still fishtail. If you break traction just let off the fuel and it straightens right out. With 4 wheel drive a TV spinout is even less likely. But with an engine brake, or aggressive downshifting the weight of the trailer can push you sideways. I have let off the fuel and had the trailer start to push me in which case a little power will straighten it back out. There's so much I could talk about but I dont have the patience to write it and you'd probably get bored reading it. Snow doesnt change the basics of traction. Any speed junkie who's ever drove race cars, 4 wheelers, snowmobiles, dirt bikes etc pushes the limits of grip and traction. Mixing power and braking. The laws are the same on concrete, dirt, mud or snow. The difference is the end of grip and traction happens at a lot lower speed on snow then concrete. Race cars still slide and spin on concrete when traction is lost. They use the same principals to try and get it back. With visibility, light traffic, and no snow plows you could easily get down the road at a decent clip. But to get around these obstacles you may have to step out into the "brave" lane, you know, the one thats not plowed yet. So assuming you're getting down the interstate without too much trouble you still have the perils that go with off the interstate. Like ramps, inclined driveways, unplowed parking lots. Thats where the weight of the trailer can prevent you from getting where you need to go because you're stuck. 4 wheel drive is a huge advantage that semis dont have. If you park somewhere in deep snow, run your tires forward and backwards before you stop. Your tires are warm, believe it or not, so they will melt a little snow, and your weight will cause you to settle some, then you're tires end up in a small little valley that you cant pull out of because of the weight behind you. Again 4 wheel drive would probably make this a moot point. I'm probably not the right person to ask if you should do it because I know it can be done, but I have a couple million miles in a semi. Don't forget that you could do everything right and still get taken out by someone else. I drive in snow with very little stress but I have been there done that hundreds of times. Without that confidence it is extremely stressful handling on oversized rig in bad weather. Everyone has a different degree of ability, nerves, and risk acceptance, even amongst truck drivers. Safe travels to you. I hope I've helped you some.
Thanks larry337.

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Old 03-27-2015, 03:16 PM   #11
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lol, I took the photo during my dig out cause I knew I was gonna have to explain why I might have been MIA from work. There was no cell phone in the area I was in and I had told a friend at work where I was going with the GPS coordinates if I didn't show up to work on Tuesday, lol. I'm alone nearly 100% of the time so I am pretty well prepared for almost anything, hence the winch, extra 75' cable, tire chains, shovel, snatch blocks ect.

My problem was we already about about 3" of snow on the ground, no big deal I got in ok, figured I would get out ok. I was listening to the radio around the camp fire and they were calling for a "big front coming in" and I thought yea right, they always exaggerate. Well I was wrong, lol
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Old 03-27-2015, 04:51 PM   #12
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A lot of people in MT & WY pull similar size snowmobile trailers in the winter up here. Granted they are not as heavy or as tall. Most people wouldn't drive until the roads have been plowed and sanded. For sure wouldn't drive down or up a mountain with as much snow as shown in DiverB's pic. Not sure if plows are out in AK and what your conditions are like.
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Old 03-28-2015, 03:46 AM   #13
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Howdy All;

The following bears repeating ..... BEST I've heard it explained and worth
a re-read



Thanks larry337.

hankaye
Glad you enjoyed it hankaye! I have a tendency to ramble on once I get started and I never know if I started getting boring LOL! One thing I didn't talk about is ice. Everyone is afraid of ice and we are too. Ice is all bad. When driving in rain if you think conditions are good for ice keep an eye on your mirrors and the edges of your windshield, this is where it will form first. If your mirrors and the edge of your windshield is starting to freeze its a good bet the road way is too. But as long as the road was pre treated or salted you can have ice on your windshield and the road can be fine. Watch the tires of passing vehicles. If there is spray coming off the tires then it's probably not iced up. When there's precipitation, a shiny road surface and no spray you could be in trouble. Ice also forms when there are strong cold winds blowing. A light snow gets melted right away by the heat of tire traffic and the cold winds flash freeze it. Or moisture in the air, dew in other words, gets glazed over by high winds. I use all these tidbits to "read" the road surface. I also use the accelerator, I may actually try to break traction just to see what I have. If I get a little wheel spin then I know I have to back off, if not then I know I'm good.

Hopefully a recreational trip can be altered a day or two in order to avoid bad weather all together. Sometimes you just get caught in it, as diverB said weather reports aren't always perfect.
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:22 AM   #14
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One thing I noticed when driving in the AK winters (where AkGuy is from) is that people don't use chains. The snowplow guys do, but its very rare to see folks using chains and there is no chain control by law enforcement.
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Old 03-28-2015, 02:19 PM   #15
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The only time you will see chains in Alaska is Garbage trucks, School Buses and of course Plow/Sand Trucks. The first two pretty obvious that they are off the main roads and alot of stop and go. With a little bit of snow on the ground there generally is enough traction with a good set of tires. BUT!!!! there is a huge difference in the type of snow we see in Alaska. Generally it is a very dry snow so we see very little ice build up before it gets cleared off the road, most times. Road surface temps are generally well below the freezing mark. The calcium chlorate(?) they use to pre treat roads in the lower 48 works pretty good at keeping things from icing up. The bad part is it does tend to leave a heavy slushy berm you need to be aware of. Plus the messy cleanup afterwards. Especially if you get caught behind the trucks pre-treating.

Plow/Sand trucks are normally chained up to help push the plows thru the snow even on grades that may have become slick due to traffic.

So basically the chains are used to assist the vehicles thru the deep snow or use on ice. Most use a chain called an ice chain. They have basically spikes on the cross links.

As far as towing...it is really up to you and what you are comfortable with. I move everything from a 2 place sled trailer all the way up to a triple axle boat trailer (I do not have surge brakes) during the winter. Slow and steady with a huge amount of following distance. If your vehicle struggles empty get off the road early and wait it out. You just need to know your equipment and your abilities. Consider chaining only to get somewhere safe and then I recommend, at least one steer wheel, both rear drive wheels and at least a pair on the trailer. Once chained keep speeds below 25 mph. Realize having only one wheel chained will make things dog walk some and can make a braking wheel throw things sideways. Get the chains on TIGHT. This will help reduce chain wear and keep them from causing damage.
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Old 03-28-2015, 03:39 PM   #16
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Regardless of the type of snow, the road from Anchorage to Girdwood can be tricky. Bad commute, especially in the early days before they improved the road. I never used studs, either.
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Old 03-29-2015, 11:02 AM   #17
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Regardless of the type of snow, the road from Anchorage to Girdwood can be tricky. Bad commute, especially in the early days before they improved the road. I never used studs, either.
When I first got here in the mid 90's I would call Anchorage roads and Alaska roads terrible during the winter months. Over the last 5 to 7 years they have made huge improvements in their snow removal capabilities and road care. I had studs the first year I was here and never again after that. Their is almost no reason to have them anymore other then to give folks a false sense of security and groove the roads real bad. I do live in an LSA (Limited Service Area) so we are not well plowed or maintained during the winter.
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:53 AM   #18
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Thanks Larry337

Larry337 I thank you for your info. With 50 years in Alaska I am no stranger to snow and ice on the road. I have towed for years. but nothing was over 4,000 lbs. and I knew the roads. I wanted to be in Michigan in early October, but I think that may put us in Northern Canada to late to avoid icy roads. I may have to head back to Alaska sooner then I thought or just store the trailer some where in the states and have an easy trip back to Alaska in my 4x4 Duramax. Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience.
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:08 PM   #19
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Larry337 I thank you for your info. With 50 years in Alaska I am no stranger to snow and ice on the road. I have towed for years. but nothing was over 4,000 lbs. and I knew the roads. I wanted to be in Michigan in early October, but I think that may put us in Northern Canada to late to avoid icy roads. I may have to head back to Alaska sooner then I thought or just store the trailer some where in the states and have an easy trip back to Alaska in my 4x4 Duramax. Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience.

I have made the trip ALCAN many times from September to April. Weather does tend to be a little unpredictable. You just can't say you are going to make the trip in 3 or 4 days. Sometimes yes other times no. I made a trip south end of May beginning of June that took 11 days to get from Anchorage to Montana. Large sections of the road had gotten completely washed out.

I hit one real bad ice storm on a November haul out. The road surface went from wet to sheer ice about instantly. I had already slowed and was watching the air temps when things got a little funny. I was able to get off the road and drove a while in the grass. I only got on the road when I was unable to continue on the grass. After about 3 hours I made it into an oil camp. Very nice folks gave me a bite to eat and a place to chill waiting for the sand truck. They had put so much sand down the road looked like a dirt road. That was probably one trip where the trailer I was pulling had most likely exceeded rated GVW because of the amount of snow and ice built up on the rigs. In total the that trip was only one day longer then average.ON EDIT: I just remembered this was the same trip that I had to wave down cars to help transport a bunch of steel workers to the hospital in Whitehorse. They were going way to fast and hit a rock wall head on and rolled. What a mess.......everyone made it out ok, all alive anyway. I spent a couple of hours doing first aid before someone else showed up. I did not have any room to transport but one person and there was 5. No lights from any local residents, no phone coverage. Luckily I had seen the accident. This was before I hit the bad weather.

ALCAN road conditions are above average during winter months. You know a storm is coming find a place to wait it out. I have learned to ask lots of questions and watch the news daily.
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:25 AM   #20
Desert185
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I've done the Hwy with a motorhome, a motorcycle and more than a few times with an airplane, but never during the winter. My hat is off to you.
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