Keystone 5th Wheel Purchase

[JoeVMorton]

Hi,
We are looking at purchasing our first RV/5th wheel. We have been considering the following:

2023 Cougar Sport 2100RK
2024 Cougar Sport 2100RK
2024 Cougar 23MLE
2024 Arcadia Select 21SRK

Leanings towards the 23 2100RK, but don't have experience with any of them. Does anyone have the 23 that could share some thoughts on that (or other) options?
Thanks,
Joe

[rhagfo]

Well if you like the rear kitchen, to us the main advantage of the rear kitchen is the cooking happens out of the main traffic flow. Three of your choices are have a rear door that puts the kitchen in the main traffic flow. The only mid door rear kitchen is the 2024 Cougar 23MLE. Our Copper Canyon is also a rear kitchen with mid door and we love the floor plan, cooking happens outside the main traffic flow, and plenty of counter space.

[JoeVMorton]

Thanks, we didn't even think of that. Will def take it into consideration.

[cougar23]

We have the 23MLE and really like it. Sold a class C motorhome to get the 23MLE.

[P&D]

We also have the 23MLE. Love it, and also love that we can get to the bathroom and bedroom with slides in.

[cougar23]

Would also add that our 23MLE has been trouble free for the 2000 miles we have used it.

[wiredgeorge]

Suggest you consider what tow vehicle you have or are going to purchase. A 10K lb. gross weight 5th wheel will have about 23 percent of the weight on the tongue (2300 lbs) so add the weight of the hitch itself and passengers and stuff in the truck. You are looking at 3000 lbs pin weight. Do not be deceived by the posted pin weights as they are fantasies. To find YOUR payload capacity, there is a yellow/white placard in the driver's door frame that tells you specifically what your payload capacity is. Exceeding this payload causes safety and legal liabilities (in the even of a wreck). We have a rear kitchen with the layout very similar to the one Russ posted (our camper is 28.7') but no bedroom slideout which I personally would not want (east/west bed) and all the frame cracking I can recall being recounted on this forum was from that type of bedroom slide.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

Hi,
We are looking at purchasing our first RV/5th wheel. We have been considering the following:

2023 Cougar Sport 2100RK
2024 Cougar Sport 2100RK
2024 Cougar 23MLE
2024 Arcadia Select 21SRK

Leanings towards the 23 2100RK, but don't have experience with any of them. Does anyone have the 23 that could share some thoughts on that (or other) options?
Thanks,
Joe

There is a SIGNIFICANT downgrade with the Cougar Sport line. In 2022 Keystone discontinued the Hideout and Springdale fifth wheel lines. They were the "entry level fifth wheels" and not selling well. Keystone decided to stop producing them and to add an "entry level line" in the Cougar brand. That's where the Cougar Sport comes in....

There's a big difference in features, equipment, reliability (think better mattress, better furniture, better slides, better vinyl flooring, better insulation, better construction materials.....

Just look at the prices for the Cougar Sport 2100RK (about $41K) and the Cougar 23MLE (about $61K). There's no way the extra 8" in the MLE can increase the price by $20K.

As for the Arcadia 21SRK, I don't believe the upper deck (bath or bedroom) is accessible with the slide in travel position, so find one to verify before making the decision if access is important to you.

[dutchmensport]

looking at the floor plan of the 2023 Cougar Sport 2100RK, it looks like the bedroom and the bathroom door will be blocked when the slide is "in".

Before you settle on any floor plan, you need to go visit a dealership and actually step inside the camper. And then have the dealership pull the slides "in" and see what is actually accessible in that position too.

Plus, color schemes, flooring, and the interior decor can make or break a decision too. On paper the floor plan may look great. But when you step inside the unit, it feels claustrophobic. The toilet is too cramped for "men", or too tight at the sink for women, or the bath tub / shower ceiling is too low, or too awkward for actual use.

Remember .... whatever is at the rear of the camper will be experiencing massive G-forces bouncing up and down the road. The longer the length of the end of the camper to the axles, the greater the bounce is on the rear. Folks with rear kitchens have reported broken dishes, cabinets that fly open, refrigerators that break way from the support holding them against the wall, broken counter tops, all sorts of problem.

I'm not saying "Don't" get this floor plan, you just need to be aware of some of the problems others have experienced.

I have a Montana High Country Fifth Wheel with a rear bedroom. The closet is in the very rear of the camper, across the entire back. On our very first trip with the camper, the shelf holding the clothes bar completely collapsed, the bar came down and all our clothes were piles under a broken shelf.

I was able to put temporary supports under the shelf that held the cloths bar and able to use the camper. Once home,..... after 2 attemps to fix the closet and 2 more collapses .... the 3rd attempt was successful when I simply rebuilt the interior of the closet and supported a new shelf from the bottom up! It's never failed since.

So, just be aware, the rear of the camper takes a horrible beating. What is located on the end of the camper will also take a horrible beating. It's just something you need to be aware of........

[dutchmensport]

In addition .... before settling on a specific model, you also need to check exactly where the hook-ups are located. Some models have the electric power cord connection DIRECTLY under the water fill. Some are located in odd places.

You need to know where the sewer hoses connect. If they are located under one of the slides, your life will be miserable crawling under the slide out to pull the discharge valve to drain any of your tanks. (I know, I have 1 discharge port that is under one of my slides).

You'll want to know WHERE the tanks are located,..... fresh water, black, and grey. The position where they are located makes a big difference is the way a trailer handles when they are full. Any tanks behind the axles will affect tongue weight. The lighter the tongue, the more potential there is for trailer sway.

The hook-ups are important..... know where they are located BEFORE you purchase and make sure EVERYTHING is accessible OUTSIDE the camper when the slides are OUT.... and no hook up are one above the other.

Another note.... notice the down-spouts on the rain gutters. With a rear door, does the awning come over the door or does it stop short of the door. When it rains, will the rain gutter spout spew water right at the door? Some models are set up like this and folks raise H*** about the water pouring right at the door when it rains.

Which side of the trailer is the water heater and the furnace located on. If the water heater is on the passenger side and you are sitting under the awning and the water heater kicks on with gas and starts blowing, it can make for a very uncomfortable place to set up a lawn chair. You have just lost usable space under the awning.

Same for the furnace! They blow a lot of hot air! Sitting on the side of the camper with the furnace and water heater can make an unpleasant experience.

And how about that television antenna on the roof? If you have anything that stick up from the roof .... IT WILL get hit by low hanging tree branches .... eventually! It will happen if you travel. Antenna's that stick up and have edges, made on a single pedestal, or have prongs WILL get hit by trees eventually and rip off. The best antenna is the Wingard 360, it's round. It may get hit by trees but it won't rip off. The old batwing television antenna is good also. It folds down flat on the room, out of the way. Just remember to lower the batwing antenna when you leave the campground! May folks have ripped them off too by failing to lower them.

Another OUTSIDE consideration is the location and usability of the outside baggage / storage compartments. Examine then carefully and make sure they are large enough to accommodate your projected future needs. Lawn chairs, even though they are foldable, they do not fit every compartment. How will you put your outside camping items in those compartments. Is there enough storage area for you?

What type of slide out system does the slide outs use: Cable driven, Schwinteck, Rack and Pinion. Are they electric or hydraulic? Each slide out system has it's advantages and it's disadvantages. You need to know what yours has and know how to trouble shoot them. You will eventually have some issues with the slides. It just happens. Know the type of slide your unit has BEFORE you buy it. Do some research on the internet about the pro's and con's of each. THIS could be a deciding factor for you if caught between 2 different units of the same floor plan and everything else being equal.

And don't forget the tires. What is factory installed on the camper. More than likely, they are a cheap-o-chineese tire. Financially, there is nothing cheap about the tires. They are cheaply made. You may want to negotiate for a better tire, or just plan on swapping them after you purchase. But tires are the single most important item about your trailer, next to the roof.

And yes, get on top of the camper and look at the roof! What you see up there could make or break your decision on a specific model too.

What I'm saying is .... there IS more to the camper than just the floor plan! You really need to consider what type of camping you are planning on doing and then make sure your camper will accommodate those needs.

AND don't be surprised, if after 2 years, you realize your initial purchase of a camper is no longer working for you. It's usually the 3rd or 4th camper that folks purchase that is the one they keep long term.

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Suggest you consider what tow vehicle you have or are going to purchase. A 10K lb. gross weight 5th wheel will have about 23 percent of the weight on the tongue (2300 lbs) so add the weight of the hitch itself and passengers and stuff in the truck. You are looking at 3000 lbs pin weight. Do not be deceived by the posted pin weights as they are fantasies. To find YOUR payload capacity, there is a yellow/white placard in the driver's door frame that tells you specifically what your payload capacity is. Exceeding this payload causes safety and legal liabilities (in the even of a wreck). We have a rear kitchen with the layout very similar to the one Russ posted (our camper is 28.7') but no bedroom slideout which I personally would not want (east/west bed) and all the frame cracking I can recall being recounted on this forum was from that type of bedroom slide.

Thanks George, that's very helpful. I will use that to make sure things match before I buy anything. I sense that the sales folks don't really understand the details.

Just FYI, we have a 2019 F250 6.7L.
Joe

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

There is a SIGNIFICANT downgrade with the Cougar Sport line. In 2022 Keystone discontinued the Hideout and Springdale fifth wheel lines. They were the "entry level fifth wheels" and not selling well. Keystone decided to stop producing them and to add an "entry level line" in the Cougar brand. That's where the Cougar Sport comes in....

There's a big difference in features, equipment, reliability (think better mattress, better furniture, better slides, better vinyl flooring, better insulation, better construction materials.....

Just look at the prices for the Cougar Sport 2100RK (about $41K) and the Cougar 23MLE (about $61K). There's no way the extra 8" in the MLE can increase the price by $20K.

As for the Arcadia 21SRK, I don't believe the upper deck (bath or bedroom) is accessible with the slide in travel position, so find one to verify before making the decision if access is important to you.

Thanks John, I was wondering about that. Sort of hoping that it was just a bit less luxurious inside. I was hoping to stay in the low to mid 40s, but I don't want to sacrifice quality for sure.
Joe

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by dutchmensport

looking at the floor plan of the 2023 Cougar Sport 2100RK, it looks like the bedroom and the bathroom door will be blocked when the slide is "in".

Before you settle on any floor plan, you need to go visit a dealership and actually step inside the camper. And then have the dealership pull the slides "in" and see what is actually accessible in that position too.

Plus, color schemes, flooring, and the interior decor can make or break a decision too. On paper the floor plan may look great. But when you step inside the unit, it feels claustrophobic. The toilet is too cramped for "men", or too tight at the sink for women, or the bath tub / shower ceiling is too low, or too awkward for actual use.

Remember .... whatever is at the rear of the camper will be experiencing massive G-forces bouncing up and down the road. The longer the length of the end of the camper to the axles, the greater the bounce is on the rear. Folks with rear kitchens have reported broken dishes, cabinets that fly open, refrigerators that break way from the support holding them against the wall, broken counter tops, all sorts of problem.

I'm not saying "Don't" get this floor plan, you just need to be aware of some of the problems others have experienced.

I have a Montana High Country Fifth Wheel with a rear bedroom. The closet is in the very rear of the camper, across the entire back. On our very first trip with the camper, the shelf holding the clothes bar completely collapsed, the bar came down and all our clothes were piles under a broken shelf.

I was able to put temporary supports under the shelf that held the cloths bar and able to use the camper. Once home,..... after 2 attemps to fix the closet and 2 more collapses .... the 3rd attempt was successful when I simply rebuilt the interior of the closet and supported a new shelf from the bottom up! It's never failed since.

So, just be aware, the rear of the camper takes a horrible beating. What is located on the end of the camper will also take a horrible beating. It's just something you need to be aware of........

I will definitely do that at the dealership before we buy. Not having owned one before, I never really considered access with the slides in. Is that something that is useful while traveling, or parked at home?

Lol, I would never have thought of that. It would probably be the heaviest part of the trailer, so we would at least have to take it into account.
Thanks,
Joe

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by dutchmensport

In addition .... before settling on a specific model, you also need to check exactly where the hook-ups are located. Some models have the electric power cord connection DIRECTLY under the water fill. Some are located in odd places.

You need to know where the sewer hoses connect. If they are located under one of the slides, your life will be miserable crawling under the slide out to pull the discharge valve to drain any of your tanks. (I know, I have 1 discharge port that is under one of my slides).

You'll want to know WHERE the tanks are located,..... fresh water, black, and grey. The position where they are located makes a big difference is the way a trailer handles when they are full. Any tanks behind the axles will affect tongue weight. The lighter the tongue, the more potential there is for trailer sway.

The hook-ups are important..... know where they are located BEFORE you purchase and make sure EVERYTHING is accessible OUTSIDE the camper when the slides are OUT.... and no hook up are one above the other.

Another note.... notice the down-spouts on the rain gutters. With a rear door, does the awning come over the door or does it stop short of the door. When it rains, will the rain gutter spout spew water right at the door? Some models are set up like this and folks raise H*** about the water pouring right at the door when it rains.

Which side of the trailer is the water heater and the furnace located on. If the water heater is on the passenger side and you are sitting under the awning and the water heater kicks on with gas and starts blowing, it can make for a very uncomfortable place to set up a lawn chair. You have just lost usable space under the awning.

Same for the furnace! They blow a lot of hot air! Sitting on the side of the camper with the furnace and water heater can make an unpleasant experience.

And how about that television antenna on the roof? If you have anything that stick up from the roof .... IT WILL get hit by low hanging tree branches .... eventually! It will happen if you travel. Antenna's that stick up and have edges, made on a single pedestal, or have prongs WILL get hit by trees eventually and rip off. The best antenna is the Wingard 360, it's round. It may get hit by trees but it won't rip off. The old batwing television antenna is good also. It folds down flat on the room, out of the way. Just remember to lower the batwing antenna when you leave the campground! May folks have ripped them off too by failing to lower them.

Another OUTSIDE consideration is the location and usability of the outside baggage / storage compartments. Examine then carefully and make sure they are large enough to accommodate your projected future needs. Lawn chairs, even though they are foldable, they do not fit every compartment. How will you put your outside camping items in those compartments. Is there enough storage area for you?

What type of slide out system does the slide outs use: Cable driven, Schwinteck, Rack and Pinion. Are they electric or hydraulic? Each slide out system has it's advantages and it's disadvantages. You need to know what yours has and know how to trouble shoot them. You will eventually have some issues with the slides. It just happens. Know the type of slide your unit has BEFORE you buy it. Do some research on the internet about the pro's and con's of each. THIS could be a deciding factor for you if caught between 2 different units of the same floor plan and everything else being equal.

And don't forget the tires. What is factory installed on the camper. More than likely, they are a cheap-o-chineese tire. Financially, there is nothing cheap about the tires. They are cheaply made. You may want to negotiate for a better tire, or just plan on swapping them after you purchase. But tires are the single most important item about your trailer, next to the roof.

And yes, get on top of the camper and look at the roof! What you see up there could make or break your decision on a specific model too.

What I'm saying is .... there IS more to the camper than just the floor plan! You really need to consider what type of camping you are planning on doing and then make sure your camper will accommodate those needs.

AND don't be surprised, if after 2 years, you realize your initial purchase of a camper is no longer working for you. It's usually the 3rd or 4th camper that folks purchase that is the one they keep long term.

I really appreciate you sharing all of that information, it will be extremely helpful! I am going to take it with me on my search.

I was thinking over your comments about it not likely being our only RV. That occurred to me and is partly why we have been looking at the cheaper/entry level models. If we only keep it for a few years while we learn, I wonder if it is still worth the extra ~10-15K to go with the MLE over the Sport for instance?
Thanks,
Joe

[JoeVMorton]

Thanks to everyone with 23MLEs who provided the positive feedback. That one is definitely on my list now.

I wasn't really looking for a quote, but the dealers seem to be pretty aggressive and created one for me anyway. I noticed that it has the following:

$995 Prep-Towable
$995 Freight
$499 Documentation

Does that seem excessive? I want to be reasonable, but don't want to get taken.
Thanks,
Joe

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

Thanks to everyone with 23MLEs who provided the positive feedback. That one is definitely on my list now.

I wasn't really looking for a quote, but the dealers seem to be pretty aggressive and created one for me anyway. I noticed that it has the following:

$995 Prep-Towable
$995 Freight
$499 Documentation

Does that seem excessive? I want to be reasonable, but don't want to get taken.
Thanks,
Joe

Dealers have way too many "devious means" to hide profit and keep their "trailer price" hidden unless you either carry a calculator or are great at doing the calculations "on the run".... It really doesn't matter where they put the costs, it's the "bottom line and financing charges (if you finance it, the final cost) that should be what you consider the "price for the trailer"...

As an example, one dealer may charge fees like above with a trailer cost of "factory MSRP" while another dealer may not charge any fees, but add on $3000 in "options" such as exterior finish protection, carpet protection, fabric protection and roof protection" and the trailer may wind up costing significantly more even with the "free fee cost".... So, compare "bottom line, out the door price"....

However, the trailer cost is only a part of the "price you pay".... Some dealerships have a reputation of not providing good support after the sale while other dealers have a reputation of "going the extra mile every time"....

What's the cost of having your trailer sit at the dealership for 2 months waiting for some "minor warranty work" vs being able to make an appointment, drive in at 8AM and take the trailer home that same day ????

Many dealerships will "refuse to do work" on a trailer they didn't sell, other dealers have a priority where they will only work on a trailer not purchased from them on a "space available basis"... Which means you go to the bottom of the line and only move up IF THEY HAVE NO CUSTOMER WORK THAT DAY....

So, the dealership's reputation and ability to take care of you is, for most people, just as important as the cost of the trailer....

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Dealers have way too many "devious means" to hide profit and keep their "trailer price" hidden unless you either carry a calculator or are great at doing the calculations "on the run".... It really doesn't matter where they put the costs, it's the "bottom line and financing charges (if you finance it, the final cost) that should be what you consider the "price for the trailer"...

As an example, one dealer may charge fees like above with a trailer cost of "factory MSRP" while another dealer may not charge any fees, but add on $3000 in "options" such as exterior finish protection, carpet protection, fabric protection and roof protection" and the trailer may wind up costing significantly more even with the "free fee cost".... So, compare "bottom line, out the door price"....

However, the trailer cost is only a part of the "price you pay".... Some dealerships have a reputation of not providing good support after the sale while other dealers have a reputation of "going the extra mile every time"....

What's the cost of having your trailer sit at the dealership for 2 months waiting for some "minor warranty work" vs being able to make an appointment, drive in at 8AM and take the trailer home that same day ????

Many dealerships will "refuse to do work" on a trailer they didn't sell, other dealers have a priority where they will only work on a trailer not purchased from them on a "space available basis"... Which means you go to the bottom of the line and only move up IF THEY HAVE NO CUSTOMER WORK THAT DAY....

So, the dealership's reputation and ability to take care of you is, for most people, just as important as the cost of the trailer....

I wish we had more options here, it's pretty much Camping World or Patriot RV. They both seem to have about the same rating, but CW seems a lot busier to me.

There are some other options about 100 miles away. I may at least check them out to see what kind of pricing I get there.

I do value having a good dealer even at a bit of a premium. Not sure how that would work out if they are 100 miles away though.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

Thanks to everyone with 23MLEs who provided the positive feedback. That one is definitely on my list now.

I wasn't really looking for a quote, but the dealers seem to be pretty aggressive and created one for me anyway. I noticed that it has the following:

$995 Prep-Towable
$995 Freight
$499 Documentation

Does that seem excessive? I want to be reasonable, but don't want to get taken.
Thanks,
Joe

I guess you have never purchased a vehicle from a dealer? Did they add in scotch-guard fabric protector and paint sealer? Their job is to take as much of your money as possible. $500 documentation? For a title app and license tag? $1000 prep? Geesh. I can see the freight charge but the others?

[JoeVMorton]

I found a calculator and made an attempt at plugging in the numbers for my F250 and the Cougar 23MLE using a pin weight % of 23:

Result Details

Truck name F250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.7L
Truck GVWR 10000 lbs
Truck Curb Weight 7389 lbs
Payload Capacity 2611 lbs
GCWR 28700 lbs
Towing Capacity 18700 lbs
Passenger Weight 350 lbs
Cargo Weight 300 lbs
Calculated GVW 9977.44 lbs
Calculated GCW 16467 lbs

RV name Cougar 23MLE
RV Type 5th Wheel
RV GVWR 10000 lbs
RV UVW 7678 lbs
Payload Capacity 2322 lbs
Cargo Weight 750 lbs
Calculated GVW 8428 lbs
Calculated Hitch Weight 1938.44 lbs

Result summary

You appear to be in pretty good shape for the numbers provided. Drive safely and happy camping!

GVW vs GVWR (Truck)
✓ GVW = 9977.44 lbs
GVWR = 10000 lbs
Your Gross Vehicle Weight for your tow vehicle is 9977.44 lbs. You are within GVWR of 10000 lbs by 22.55999999999949 lbs.

GVW vs GVWR (RV)
✓ GVW = 8428 lbs
GVWR = 10000 lbs
Your Gross Vehicle Weight for your RV is 8428 lbs. You are within GVWR of 10000 lbs by 1572 lbs.

GCW vs GCWR
✓ GCW = 16467 lbs
GCWR = 28700 lbs
Your Gross Combined Weight is 16467 lbs. You are within GCWR of 28700 lbs by 12233 lbs.

RV GVW vs Truck Towing Capacity
✓ RV GVW = 8428 lbs
Truck Towing Capacity = 18700 lbs
Your Gross Vehicle Weight for your RV is 8428 lbs. You are within Truck Towing Capacity of 18700 lbs by 10272 lbs.

It seems to just be under the limit with those parameters, but it's really close.

Interestingly the towing guide indicates a payload capacity of 3480 vs the 2611 on the yellow door sticker. It's not called payload capacity on the door sticker, are they the same thing? Using 3480 makes things a lot more comfortable.

I would welcome any feedback on what I plugged in and/or how comfortable you would be moving forward with a similar trailer. It seems crazy that an F250 6.7L TD wouldn't be able to handle a 5th wheel geared towards 1/2 ton trucks.

[sourdough]

You can't, and don't, use a towing guide for anything other than an ill advised guess. The door sticker is YOUR truck and not a brochure truck...the brochure is always an optimistic number meant to mislead potential buyers.

Quick numbers; trailer gvwr is 10,000 lbs. GVWR x 23% = 2300 lbs. Payload is 2611 leaving 311 lbs. for occupants, gear, hitch (200lbs?) etc. - not good. The diesel engine removes a lot of carrying capacity due to the weight.