The Weight Police - half wrong/half right

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

Sourdough,

This is from connecting with GM corporate and current GM engineers. I am fairly well connected and was fortunate to have a connection to them.

I better add this to:
One Engineer even said you can go on to the website to build a truck with all your options. By switching only the tires from 18” to 20” you’ll increase the trucks payload that will ship out to you.

I was considering building a truck at the time.

I know you said, “The GVWR of the truck is the GVWR of the truck, tires don't have anything to do with it UNLESS (a situation I've never encountered) the tires cannot support the given GVWR of the truck.”

If you go to the build site you’ll see by changing ONLY the tires, you can actually raise or lower the GVWR of the truck like the engineers said. You can also have the 3/4 ton trucks certified at 10k lbs and shipped with that sticker even though their actual GVWR is 11,350 lbs. No change in anything.

I learned a ton from GM. I hope the picture examples go through.

Attachment 35249

Attachment 35250

Attachment 35251

Going up in tire load capacity is called "load capacity reserves". It has zero to do with increasing or decreasing the capacity of GAWRs or the GVWR.

The vehicle manufacturer cannot change a GVWR without certifying the weakest link has changed. The only ones authorized to change a vehicle's GVWR are the vehicle's manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier/alterer.
It's explained in 49 CFR part 567.

You may have been talking to someone that doesn't know squat about original equipment tire fitments and the federal regulations/standards that govern them.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Going up in tire load capacity is called "load capacity reserves". It has zero to do with increasing or decreasing the capacity of GAWRs or the GVWR.

The vehicle manufacturer cannot change a GVWR without certifying the weakest link has changed. The only ones authorized to change a vehicle's GVWR are the vehicle's manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier/alterer.
It's explained in 49 CFR part 567.

You may have been talking to someone that doesn't know squat about original equipment tire fitments and the federal regulations/standards that govern them.

Thank you CW.....I was hoping/waiting for you to come along and "enlighten" our Original Poster on this thread. As you have likely read, there were/are so many things wrong about his posted info that it was pretty much a basket case of min-information.

[jamtracy]

If all your trailer weighs is 7500 pounds then I can see your 1/2 ton towing that.

I don’t know what you mean by the tire sticker is half right? On my Denali it says “the combined weight of all occupants and cargo should never exceed 5285#. “
How is that half right? Isn’t it telling me the payload limit? What does your’s say $1500#?

I read a thread on the Avalanche Facebook page a guy is towing his 395 42’ trailer with a 3/4 ton. I would bet he already exceeds his pin weight (my 3/4 ton was only 2700#) with nothing in his trailer. Add in fuel, cargo and people he is way over payload. But hey he might do a power point just like you did to justify towing over weight.
Take care and I hope you are the “correct” police that I don’t have to pass going up hill or stop in front of.

[Brantlaker]

This is to complicated. Just go out and buy a 3500 DRW Diesel truck and don't worry about it

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by jamtracy

If all your trailer weighs is 7500 pounds then I can see your 1/2 ton towing that.

I don’t know what you mean by the tire sticker is half right? On my Denali it says “the combined weight of all occupants and cargo should never exceed 5285#. “
How is that half right? Isn’t it telling me the payload limit? What does your’s say $1500#?

I read a thread on the Avalanche Facebook page a guy is towing his 395 42’ trailer with a 3/4 ton. I would bet he already exceeds his pin weight (my 3/4 ton was only 2700#) with nothing in his trailer. Add in fuel, cargo and people he is way over payload. But hey he might do a power point just like you did to justify towing over weight.
Take care and I hope you are the “correct” police that I don’t have to pass going up hill or stop in front of.

The 3/4 ton you owned was actually pretty decent payload. My sis's 3/4 ton Ram Laramie diesel 4x4 short bed crew cab is just over 2K lbs payload.

[Ribtip]

Can we now get over to the post about nice weight police and start posting some smokey and the bandit lines. You guys are missing out on a great opportunity over there. Do it for me. Hush puppies we ain't got time for that crap

[DieselMike]

Hello and hope everyone is doing well;
I read through the trail of weights, there is a lot of experts on this forum who have towed for years and years. After you tow for years, and learned from beginner mistakes ( hopfully cheap lessons, and no injuries ) you realize outcomes can go different directions.

I lerned a lot from these forums when i started reading them.

I startted towing a 14’ pop up in 1980 ( Honda accord - YES no one told me bad move ), then a 24’ TT with E350, then a 27’TT with E350, the a 30’ TT with Ford Excursion - basically ( an F250 short bed), then a 36’ TT --- This is when i realized length and weight is huge with smaller wheel base and not a good place to be in ) - so up grades 8 years ago with a Chevy silverado 3500 crew cab 8’ bed diesel...and now a 39’ 5er with same 3500 Chevy.
You will need to make your own choices, and those who have been towing for years know this better than i do, its not IF, its WHEN an issue arrises, and only then will you have the deer in the head light look - hopfully no damage or injuries. If you ever lose your TT breaks for what ever reason, is your TV going to be able to stop in time ? This has heppened to me towing my 5er after crossing a bridge and when the truck went up and down from the less than stellar road way ( wont say which state - not important, but when this action occurred, the truck actuall was able to bottom out the uper suspention parts and cut the ABS wire which in a chevy immediatley shuts off power from your truck to the trailer breaks. Was i scared yes, but very happy that i was effectiley able to stop the 5er becuase i had planty f truck to do so along with exhaust brake. I dont want to scare any one, but i’m now siding on the point id rather have it and not need it than need in a pinch and not have it. New F450 order 6 months ago to even further have that backing for what else could come my way.


I seriously wish the best with everyone and your pursuit of camping be safe, and god bless.

[jamtracy]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

The 3/4 ton you owned was actually pretty decent payload. My sis's 3/4 ton Ram Laramie diesel 4x4 short bed crew cab is just over 2K lbs payload.

Oh wow. Maybe cause mine was a 2012 diesel? Not sure though.

[colouiss651]

Your entire article, while respectful, comes off as an attempt to defend the truck of your choice.
All the specs aside, start down a nine percent grade with a half ton pickup (any make) pulling within 20 percent of whatever your capacity is at 45mph, have someone pass you, swoop in front of you and decide to slam on their brakes, and you will run over them, killing everyone. I came closer to doing this on two occasions than I care to remember. A 3/4 ton has the brakes to stop. a half ton does not. If you tow in the mountains, it will happen and probably more often than you can imagine. My half ton with power tweaks could pull most of the mountains with 8k attached. It could not stop in time to prevent a catastrophe.
In this case, experience trumps specs. 40k plus miles of tow experience. Riding in a 3/4 ton now leaves me with no concerns about stopping. A 6.6l diesel sure pulls the Colorado mountains well also. If you arent towing in the mountains, then your choice is probably okay.
Respectfully submitted.

[DieselMike]

People in cars, trucks, motor cycles darting in front of a truck towing an RV seems to be a must do thing nowadays. Absolutley worse now than a decade ago IMHO.
I have never been to Colorado Mountains, but Colouiss651 makes a great point. all of that potential weight along with things in motion tend to stay in motion going down a pretty good decline is a big factor.

[RWRiley]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

The 3/4 ton you owned was actually pretty decent payload. My sis's 3/4 ton Ram Laramie diesel 4x4 short bed crew cab is just over 2K lbs payload.

Wow - that surprises me. My 1/2 ton Tahoe has a payload of 1,797.

Which brings me to my next point. The GVWR on my Tahoe is 7,300 lbs. The tires (from the factory) are rated at 2,469 lbs each. Do the math and you get 9,876 lbs, which is way over the GVWR.

According to the scale, my Tahoe weighs 5,520 lbs. Add the 1,797 lb payload, and you get 7,317 lbs - which is pretty much right on the money (7,300 lbs GVWR).

My conclusion is, at least in my case, the sticker on the door is based on the limits of the truck, not the tires.

[crowbar]

The most valuable thing on this forum is the advice of the talented people that help us less talented people to repair our campers when problems arise. The rest is just entertainment reading some of the rants of others. I certainly don't agree with everything that the weight freaks submit or some of the others. Most of it is simply another man's opinion. At the end of the day, each of us who has invested in our own equipment will use these opinions to operate in what ever way our own knowledge and experience dictates.

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

This is not meant to be offensive. I for one appreciate the concern people have for other’s safety and the term weight police is not being used in a derogatory manner. 

This is meant to tell you some of the weight police here are dead wrong, some are half right and some are really good. But thank you to all who have helped me research, investigate and experience this world for myself.

You can go here for the back story which prompted this post:
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=45015

In short I had some “weight police” attempt to discourage me and tell me I was “dangerous” “overloaded” “overweight” etc because I was towing a 34’ trailer with a 1/2 Ton Sierra Denali. After an entire season of towing, many trips, many miles and towing with 5 different trucks, including a F250 Diesel, I learned the 1/2 ton Sierra Denali with the 6.2l and electronic trailer sway control handles and tows my trailer better than the 5 other trucks I tried (including the F150 3.5 and the F250 6.7 Diesel). This experience is 100% contrary to the experience the weight police said I would have. I almost went and bought a 3/4 ton diesel. Glad I tested 5 trucks first over this summer.



Here is where you are half right and half wrong (not all of you).

1)The payload sticker on your truck (half WRONG).
“There is a payload capacity on the tire label sticker on your door jamb. This is the trucks payload capacity.” 

That is half wrong. The tire sticker is NOT the trucks payload capacity. The tire sticker is the payload the TIRES can support which may be less than what the truck can support. On my truck they put Passenger rated tires which gave me a payload of 1300 lbs. Per a discussion with GM if you change to LT or better tires you just increased tire payload to or above your trucks payload capacity.

My suggestion: stop saying the tire capacity is the truck’s capacity.
Half right = your truck’s payload capacity is limited by the payload capacity of the tires.
Half wrong = your tuck’s actual capacity is much higher than the tire limit. You can increase tire payload capacity with better ply tires.

2)Trucks ACTUAL Payload
As pointed out above. The tire label is NOT the truck’s actual payload as many suggest.
Payload as only some of you accurately point out is the trucks GVWR - the trucks current weight, which is higher than the tire payload label on these half ton trucks.

Suggestion: Ask for the trucks GVWR - GVW and then tell a person which tires they can switch to if they want to reach the trucks payload rating instead of being limited by passenger tire pay load ratings.

3)”You can’t tow a 34’ windsail with a 1/2 Ton truck”
This has been the main concern I have heard people say. A 34’ trailer is too long for a 1/2 ton truck. 
I am here to tell you I have towed with 5 different trucks this year, all on the same route in identical weather conditions going over the Oregon/California border. For those who know, that s a pretty steep grade at times.

I can confidently say, the 1/2 ton Denali wit the magnetic suspension and electronic ride control tows and handles better than any truck I have tried from 1/2 ton F150 3.5 EcoBoost up to 3/4 ton diesels, including the F250 6.7l. And yes the WDH was setup perfectly for each truck before going on the trips.

Half right = the 2021 Silverado 5.3l RST pulled the trailer fine but was the worst on handling.
Half wrong = my 2015 Sierra 1500 Denali 6.2 blows all those trucks out of the water and I have yet to find a truck, even a 3/4 ton which handles remotely as well as this truck. And stoping power is just as good as the 3/4/ ton trucks.

Suggestion: don’t assume because you or a friend had a bad experience it relates to all other scenarios. I could but any truck on the market right now (and almost did) but I am grateful I tested the 5 trucks I was considering before buying one because it led me back to the 1/2 ton some of you said couldn’t handle my trailer. Some of you were dead wrong on that point and I almost wasted a good amount of money.

4)Tongue weight: ”Your 10k lbs trailer has a tongue weight of XXXX”
Seriously, so many people got this dead wrong!

I know there averages for a bumper pull trailer are 10% - 12% tongue weight. Sometimes 15% in the case of toy haulers.
What I learned is many of the WP did not know what I found out. Manufacturers actually design and build the RV with the exact tongue weight they want and have that number readily available for you. You don’t have to assume this number anymore. They also design your trailer so when it’s fully loaded it won’t fluctuate more than 1% in either direction, seriously. This will be hard to believe for some, so you’ll have to call the manufacturer yourself or look up the specs on your trailer build sheet.

Half right = yes the tongue weight of a bumper pull will be between 10% - 15%
Half wrong = no you don’t have to assume 15%…the trailer has been designed, balanced and the storage limited to specific areas by the manufacturer to give you the exact tongue weight.

Suggestion: tell people to look at the tongue weight listed on their trailer build sheet instead of scaring them by saying, “You have a 10K lbs trailer so your tongue weight is going to eat up 1,240 lbs of your payload.” That is so wrong. See the next point.

5)Trailer weight vs tongue weight
The GVWR of my trailer was 9580 lbs. 
So many people told me, “You have a 10k lbs trailer so your tongue weight will be 1200lbs which will put you over on payload.”

Wrong. The dry weight of my trailer is 7170 lbs. The loaded weight with all our gear is 7580 lbs and weighed on the scales, the tongue weight = 760 lbs. Full tanks would only add another 500 lbs which would then put my tongue weight to 810 lbs. That is way off from what people were saying.

Half right = Yes a fully maxed out trailer would give you a max tongue weight
Half wrong = there is no way I could possibly add another 1500 lbs to my already fully loaded trailer carrying full tanks of water. There i just no room left.

Suggestion:
Don’t calculate based on the MAXIMUM weight. Be realistic. My trailer has a payload capacity of 2,410 lbs. At max I have only been able to add 910lbs to the trailer including full water tank.

6)Trailer Length = Wind Sail
“You are pulling a 34’ wind sail with a 1/2 ton truck…it will drag you all over the road.”

Half right = Total length of my 29DSFWE is 33’ 11”.
Half wrong = the box (i.e.) wind sail portion is 29’ exactly.

Suggestion: Clarify if you are meaning the box or tongue to bumper as my tongue and bumper are hardly a wind sail. Also, my 1/2 ton truck handles this 29’ wind sail better than the 3/4 ton trucks I have tested. But only my 1/2 ton handled this way. The 3/4 tons handled better than the other 1/2 tons I tested.

7)Increasing Truck’s Payload Capacity
“You can’t increase your payload, you need to buy a new truck”

As noted above, that is false. Per GM You can increase your tire’s payload up to the truck’s actual payload (GVWR - GVW). Remember that little tire sticker is not your truck’s payload, it’s the payload capacity of the tires which is almost always less than the trucks payload on a 1/2 ton truck due to using P rated tires instead of LT or better tires. 

Thats not all though. My particular truck included everything as the max tow trucks except for the HD rear springs. Per GM, if I only put HD leaf springs in the rear, I can increase my GVWR from 7100 lbs to 7900 lbs. I can add 800 lbs to my trucks payload for $250. But since I don’t need it, I am not going to. My truck even includes the 3/4 ton rear axles rated at 14K lbs, which one person couldn’t believe. Verified via the manufacturer again.

Half right = most 1/2 ton trucks might not be as lucky as I am with only having to swap HD rear springs to add an additional 800 lbs payload.
Half wrong = stating it can’t be done. Per the manufacturer it actually can be done on every truck and you can even have a new GVWR sticker mailed to you. The amount of money it takes for that will depend on each truck, for mine, it’s $250.

Suggestion: Research that before saying it can’t be done. It can be done and for very little money in some cases.


OVERALL SUGGESTION:
Please continue to educate people and call them to research/investigate. I have fully appreciated that myself. But some weight police need to do their own research before being so mater of fact. When someone asks you to explain something that seems wrong, don’t dig your feet in and try to win a battle. Research to see if you are wrong. In my case, there were some who were dead wrong and dead set I needed to buy a new 3/4 ton truck. That led me to borrowing/renting 3/4 trucks and realizing, my 1/2 ton handles and pulls better.


This is how I would start with a new person. 

“Give us your actual numbers and we can help (CAT scale highly advisable):
1)GVWR of your TV
2)Unloaded weight of your TV
= Payload Capacity TV

3)Tire Payload Sticker
=can get better tires if needed to reach TV payload capacity

4)GVWR of Trailer
5)Unloaded weight of Trailer
= Payload capacity of trailer

6)Manufacturer designed tongue weight

7)GCWR of TV

8)Here is how much you can add to your truck and/or trailer before reaching your max capacities.”

It is really that simple.

The entire narrative that follows is what can be disconcerting. The numbers won’t lie, but the narrative may be dead wrong or half wrong in some instances. 

Again, I appreciate so many who showed concern, educated me and pointed me in the right direction. About half on the other side seemed to be simply spitting hear-say and promoting a false narrative along the way.

P.S.
Best narrative I received was from Lewis B (some others were great too), 
“I think my concern from the start was how you were arriving at "payload" capacity on your truck. The only numbers that count are the yellow payload sticker on your truck as well as the GVWR, GCWR, FAWR, RAWR, trailer GVWR, tire ratings, etc.. Every truck will be different due to build and options. You seem to be on the way to discovering that and making decisions that work for your family. The ultimate proof of legality will be a truck scale and the ultimate proof of "drivability" will be the first time you are surprise passed by an 18 wheeler in a wind storm on the freeway. Many of the guys here (including me) offer comments based on BTDT.

Again, my compliments on your quest to "get it right" and seek aid from others. Hopefully, you will interpret the fact that I am sitting here late at night talking about your RV as my desire to see you be successful and your family have a safe and comfortable RV adventure. Even though some may not get it, that's my way of saying "welcome”.”

OP, This much I know is right. You can increase your GVWR by adding springs, increasing tire type and weight ratings, and increasing wheel size. Don’t know about a new sticker from GM, but a certified modifier can certify a new GVWR, and GAWR, based on the modifications they perform. I know because I have done it. I have an additional yellow sticker from the modifier with the new certified GVWR and it also lists the tire size and ratings of the tires and rims at the time of the modification. The modifier also increased the rear GAWR based on their modifications. This increased my payload significantly. To determine a new payload its the new GVWR-curb weight which has to be done at the scales. The modifier told me they never go above the “actual” weight rating of the axle from the axle manufacturer. This is NOT the same (much higher) as the rating from the truck manufacturer. So the OP is correct as demonstrated by the GM web site that you can increase the GVWR by increasing the type and tire weight rating. Also the tire rim also changes it. This will be reflected on the sticker that GM puts on the truck before it rolls off the line. By increasing tire type and weight rating after you take delivery of your truck, in reality you do increase your GVW, but unless it is certified by a certified modifier with the modification sticker, it remains certified at whatever the manufacturer sticker says, but the weight capacity has increased. From what I have read and experienced, the DOT (part of the NTSB) govern any modification and certification of them. Only the manufacturer can change the original factory certification, which I contacted GM about and was told they just don't do that unless an error was found on the original sticker. They do not certify modifications. I would be shocked if they just mailed you a new factory sticker. Even new cars/trucks are governed by the DOT and manufacturers have to follow their guidelines. So a new sticker from GM is highly questionable. If you want new ratings you will have to get them from a certified modifier.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by crowbar

The most valuable thing on this forum is the advice of the talented people that help us less talented people to repair our campers when problems arise. The rest is just entertainment reading some of the rants of others. I certainly don't agree with everything that the weight freaks submit or some of the others. Most of it is simply another man's opinion. At the end of the day, each of us who has invested in our own equipment will use these opinions to operate in what ever way our own knowledge and experience dictates.

I think you'll find that the 'talented people' that help to 'repair our campers' on this forum are essentially the same 'weight freaks' that you refer to.

So, are these 'freaks' opinions only useful when you can't figure out why your water pump keeps making noise but they are totally clueless when it comes to towing an 8-9K trailer with a 1/2 ton truck?

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Mikelff

OP, This much I know is right. You can increase your GVWR by adding springs, increasing tire type and weight ratings, and increasing wheel size. Don’t know about a new sticker from GM, but a certified modifier can certify a new GVWR, and GAWR, based on the modifications they perform. I know because I have done it. I have an additional yellow sticker from the modifier with the new certified GVWR and it also lists the tire size and ratings of the tires and rims at the time of the modification. The modifier also increased the rear GAWR based on their modifications. This increased my payload significantly. To determine a new payload its the new GVWR-curb weight which has to be done at the scales. The modifier told me they never go above the “actual” weight rating of the axle from the axle manufacturer. This is NOT the same (much higher) as the rating from the truck manufacturer. So the OP is correct as demonstrated by the GM web site that you can increase the GVWR by increasing the type and tire weight rating. Also the tire rim also changes it. This will be reflected on the sticker that GM puts on the truck before it rolls off the line. By increasing tire type and weight rating after you take delivery of your truck, in reality you do increase your GVW, but unless it is certified by a certified modifier with the modification sticker, it remains certified at whatever the manufacturer sticker says, but the weight capacity has increased. From what I have read and experienced, the DOT (part of the NTSB) govern any modification and certification of them. Only the manufacturer can change the original factory certification, which I contacted GM about and was told they just don't do that unless an error was found on the original sticker. They do not certify modifications. I would be shocked if they just mailed you a new factory sticker. Even new cars/trucks are governed by the DOT and manufacturers have to follow their guidelines. So a new sticker from GM is highly questionable. If you want new ratings you will have to get them from a certified modifier.

If you're going to quote it you should reference it.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/part-567

[CWtheMan]

The OP has opinions that are completely wrong and violate safety standards. Most of his rhetoric has no industry support.

My Recommendation for the OP is to read USTMA manuals that pertain to the subjects his opinions are based on. Everything about DOT/NHTSA standards are in the building directions found in FMVSS. For instance, any tire selected to be an Original Equipment tire on a road vehicle MUST support that vehicle's GAWRs.

(Half-truth: A statement that conveys only part of the truth, especially one used deliberately in order to deceive someone.)

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

This is not meant to be offensive. I for one appreciate the concern people have for other’s safety and the term weight police is not being used in a derogatory manner. 

This is meant to tell you some of the weight police here are dead wrong, some are half right and some are really good. But thank you to all who have helped me research, investigate and experience this world for myself.

You can go here for the back story which prompted this post:
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=45015

In short I had some “weight police” attempt to discourage me and tell me I was “dangerous” “overloaded” “overweight” etc because I was towing a 34’ trailer with a 1/2 Ton Sierra Denali. After an entire season of towing, many trips, many miles and towing with 5 different trucks, including a F250 Diesel, I learned the 1/2 ton Sierra Denali with the 6.2l and electronic trailer sway control handles and tows my trailer better than the 5 other trucks I tried (including the F150 3.5 and the F250 6.7 Diesel). This experience is 100% contrary to the experience the weight police said I would have. I almost went and bought a 3/4 ton diesel. Glad I tested 5 trucks first over this summer.



Here is where you are half right and half wrong (not all of you).

1)The payload sticker on your truck (half WRONG). That sticker is valid the day the vehicle left the factory. Dealers are authorized to make changes as needed for options they add/install)
“There is a payload capacity on the tire label sticker on your door jamb. This is the trucks payload capacity.” 

That is half wrong. The tire sticker is NOT the trucks payload capacity. The tire sticker is the payload the TIRES can support which may be less than what the truck can support. The purpose of the tires is to support the vehicle's GAWRs and nothing else. On my truck they put Passenger rated tires which gave me a payload of 1300 lbs. Per a discussion with GM if you change to LT or better tires you just increased tire payload to or above your trucks payload capacity. When plus sizing to LT tires there are standard procedures to follow. The extra load capacity they may provide is for load capacity reserves only.

My suggestion: stop saying the tire capacity is the truck’s capacity.
Half right = your truck’s payload capacity is limited by the payload capacity of the tires. The payload capacity is limited by the vehicle's GVWR.
Half wrong = your tuck’s actual capacity is much higher than the tire limit. You can increase tire payload capacity with better ply tires. Again, tires can only provide load capacity reserves.

2)Trucks ACTUAL Payload
As pointed out above. The tire label is NOT the truck’s actual payload as many suggest.
Payload as only some of you accurately point out is the trucks GVWR - the trucks current weight, which is higher than the tire payload label on these half ton trucks. Show me?

True payload capacity = GVWR minus GVW.

Suggestion: Ask for the trucks GVWR - GVW and then tell a person which tires they can switch to if they want to reach the trucks payload rating instead of being limited by passenger tire pay load ratings.

3)”You can’t tow a 34’ windsail with a 1/2 Ton truck”
This has been the main concern I have heard people say. A 34’ trailer is too long for a 1/2 ton truck. 
I am here to tell you I have towed with 5 different trucks this year, all on the same route in identical weather conditions going over the Oregon/California border. For those who know, that s a pretty steep grade at times. Does that make it right??

I can confidently say, the 1/2 ton Denali with the magnetic suspension and electronic ride control tows and handles better than any truck I have tried from 1/2 ton F150 3.5 EcoBoost up to 3/4 ton diesels, including the F250 6.7l. And yes the WDH was setup perfectly for each truck before going on the trips.

Half right = the 2021 Silverado 5.3l RST pulled the trailer fine but was the worst on handling.
Half wrong = my 2015 Sierra 1500 Denali 6.2 blows all those trucks out of the water and I have yet to find a truck, even a 3/4 ton which handles remotely as well as this truck. And stoping power is just as good as the 3/4/ ton trucks.

Suggestion: don’t assume because you or a friend had a bad experience it relates to all other scenarios. I could but any truck on the market right now (and almost did) but I am grateful I tested the 5 trucks I was considering before buying one because it led me back to the 1/2 ton some of you said couldn’t handle my trailer. Some of you were dead wrong on that point and I almost wasted a good amount of money.

4)Tongue weight: ”Your 10k lbs trailer has a tongue weight of XXXX”
Seriously, so many people got this dead wrong! Only the trailer owner knows (?) the tongue weight of the trailer hooked to his tow vehicle

I know there averages for a bumper pull trailer are 10% - 12% tongue weight. Sometimes 15% in the case of toy haulers.
What I learned is many of the WP did not know what I found out. Manufacturers actually design and build the RV with the exact tongue weight they want and have that number readily available for you. You don’t have to assume this number anymore. They also design your trailer so when it’s fully loaded it won’t fluctuate more than 1% in either direction, seriously. This will be hard to believe for some, so you’ll have to call the manufacturer yourself or look up the specs on your trailer build sheet.

Half right = yes the tongue weight of a bumper pull will be between 10% - 15%
Half wrong = no you don’t have to assume 15%…the trailer has been designed, balanced and the storage limited to specific areas by the manufacturer to give you the exact tongue weight.

Suggestion: tell people to look at the tongue weight listed on their trailer build sheet instead of scaring them by saying, “You have a 10K lbs trailer so your tongue weight is going to eat up 1,240 lbs of your payload.” That is so wrong. See the next point.

5)Trailer weight vs tongue weight
The GVWR of my trailer was 9580 lbs. 
So many people told me, “You have a 10k lbs trailer so your tongue weight will be 1200lbs which will put you over on payload.”

Wrong. The dry weight of my trailer is 7170 lbs. The loaded weight with all our gear is 7580 lbs and weighed on the scales, the tongue weight = 760 lbs. Full tanks would only add another 500 lbs which would then put my tongue weight to 810 lbs. That is way off from what people were saying.

Half right = Yes a fully maxed out trailer would give you a max tongue weight
Half wrong = there is no way I could possibly add another 1500 lbs to my already fully loaded trailer carrying full tanks of water. There i just no room left.

Suggestion:
Don’t calculate based on the MAXIMUM weight. Be realistic. My trailer has a payload capacity of 2,410 lbs. At max I have only been able to add 910lbs to the trailer including full water tank.

6)Trailer Length = Wind Sail
“You are pulling a 34’ wind sail with a 1/2 ton truck…it will drag you all over the road.”

Half right = Total length of my 29DSFWE is 33’ 11”.
Half wrong = the box (i.e.) wind sail portion is 29’ exactly.

Suggestion: Clarify if you are meaning the box or tongue to bumper as my tongue and bumper are hardly a wind sail. Also, my 1/2 ton truck handles this 29’ wind sail better than the 3/4 ton trucks I have tested. But only my 1/2 ton handled this way. The 3/4 tons handled better than the other 1/2 tons I tested.

7)Increasing Truck’s Payload Capacity
“You can’t increase your payload, you need to buy a new truck”

As noted above, that is false. Per GM You can increase your tire’s payload up to the truck’s actual payload (GVWR - GVW). Remember that little tire sticker is not your truck’s payload, it’s the payload capacity of the tires which is almost always less than the trucks payload on a 1/2 ton truck due to using P rated tires instead of LT or better tires. 

Thats not all though. My particular truck included everything as the max tow trucks except for the HD rear springs. Per GM, if I only put HD leaf springs in the rear, I can increase my GVWR from 7100 lbs to 7900 lbs. I can add 800 lbs to my trucks payload for $250. But since I don’t need it, I am not going to. My truck even includes the 3/4 ton rear axles rated at 14K lbs, which one person couldn’t believe. Verified via the manufacturer again. Again, tires have nothing to do with the vehicle payload.

Half right = most 1/2 ton trucks might not be as lucky as I am with only having to swap HD rear springs to add an additional 800 lbs payload.
Half wrong = stating it can’t be done. Per the manufacturer it actually can be done on every truck and you can even have a new GVWR sticker mailed to you. The amount of money it takes for that will depend on each truck, for mine, it’s $250. Once the vehicle has been sold the certification label may be changed when a certified alterer provides the vehicle manufacturer with the datails of the alteration. Sometimes another weak link will void the alterers request.

Suggestion: Research that before saying it can’t be done. It can be done and for very little money in some cases.


OVERALL SUGGESTION:
Please continue to educate people and call them to research/investigate. I have fully appreciated that myself. But some weight police need to do their own research before being so mater of fact. When someone asks you to explain something that seems wrong, don’t dig your feet in and try to win a battle. Research to see if you are wrong. In my case, there were some who were dead wrong and dead set I needed to buy a new 3/4 ton truck. That led me to borrowing/renting 3/4 trucks and realizing, my 1/2 ton handles and pulls better.


This is how I would start with a new person. 

“Give us your actual numbers and we can help (CAT scale highly advisable):
1)GVWR of your TV
2)Unloaded weight of your TV
= Payload Capacity TV

3)Tire Payload Sticker
=can get better tires if needed to reach TV payload capacity

4)GVWR of Trailer
5)Unloaded weight of Trailer
= Payload capacity of trailer

6)Manufacturer designed tongue weight

7)GCWR of TV

8)Here is how much you can add to your truck and/or trailer before reaching your max capacities.”

It is really that simple.

The entire narrative that follows is what can be disconcerting. The numbers won’t lie, but the narrative may be dead wrong or half wrong in some instances. 

Again, I appreciate so many who showed concern, educated me and pointed me in the right direction. About half on the other side seemed to be simply spitting hear-say and promoting a false narrative along the way.

P.S.
Best narrative I received was from Lewis B (some others were great too), 
“I think my concern from the start was how you were arriving at "payload" capacity on your truck. The only numbers that count are the yellow payload sticker on your truck as well as the GVWR, GCWR, FAWR, RAWR, trailer GVWR, tire ratings, etc.. Every truck will be different due to build and options. You seem to be on the way to discovering that and making decisions that work for your family. The ultimate proof of legality will be a truck scale and the ultimate proof of "drivability" will be the first time you are surprise passed by an 18 wheeler in a wind storm on the freeway. Many of the guys here (including me) offer comments based on BTDT.

Again, my compliments on your quest to "get it right" and seek aid from others. Hopefully, you will interpret the fact that I am sitting here late at night talking about your RV as my desire to see you be successful and your family have a safe and comfortable RV adventure. Even though some may not get it, that's my way of saying "welcome”.”

See colored notations.

References: 49 CFR part 567 (vehicle certificaion), FMVSS (vehicle building standards), USTMA (tire info) and NHTSA (vehicle owner's manual mandates).

[P&DZ]

Colouiss brings up an excellent point, which I agree with. Mountain passes with 6 1/2 +% grades place a whole new dimension on towing safely. We also regularly tow the Colorado mountains and in fact returned today from a trip to Grand Lake. That trip involves hauling up (and down) through a 12,000 foot elevation with a 7,000 foot elevation gain from Fort Collins to the highest point on Trail Ridge Road in RMNP. I have a yellow sticker payload of 1925 and I am well under that payload and all other specs towing a TT weighed ready for camping on a CAT scale at 6,600 lbs. But specs be damned, I would NOT consider towing anything over that 6,600 with my truck through the mountains regardless of the specs.

I too have learned so much from the knowledgeable and helpful members of this forum.

[Larrystegall]

Where do you get that new sticker? If I can get one of those, my 2500HD can be a 15K gross truck with cargo cap of 8000 lbs (currently 3017 lbs), and I can safely (and LEGALLY) tow that monster 48’ mobile suites I’ve been looking at! Cool!

[Todd727]

Your point that the yellow sticker can be misleading is valid. As a matter of fact, that sticker clearly states the payload is based on the tire size.

People here put too much faith in that yellow sticker. It is virtually useless except for giving you an idea when shopping on the lot.

Your lengthy post can be summarized by the simple direction for people to weigh their rigs when they are headed out on a trip. You will have to weigh the truck without the trailer and then weigh the truck and trailer combined.

The math is really fairly simple with the two scale weights in hand. Don't exceed any axle rating, don't exceed any GVWR. As to tire ratings, if the tires on a axle add up to more than the GAWR, you will be good. Finally, you can easily figure out the pin/tongue weight based on the difference in the truck axle weights when not connected vs. connected. Also, that pin/tongue weight needs to be added to the trailer axle weights to figure out what the GVW is for the trailer. This math will yield the same number as if you had weighed the trailer separate from the truck.