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Old 12-13-2011, 12:02 PM
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Default Black Tank Flush System Diagram

During a little research spawned by a different thread, I found the attached diagram. I thought I would share it with the Forum!

Note the comments - " . . .not be installed where venting of water from the device during normal functioning will cause damage." Hmmm, stuck up inside a wall, inaccessible, too big to get through the small hole drilled, behind the basement wall, and above the Transfer Switch. Naw, if the valve vented water, there's no damage there . . .

FYI, I did find one place (an RV dealer in New Castle, IN) who Internet sells these valves (Vacuum Breaker Model 571), and I'm looking for others. It says it must be installed 6" (15cm) higher than anything connected to the waste tank. So, I would imagine that this little valve is slightly higher than the toilet lid inside that wall!

I'm thinking maybe looking for a spring loaded check valve to put inline. Hank, what do you think?

Ron
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File Type: jpg Black_tank_flusher_block_diagram.jpg (55.0 KB, 1175 views)
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:33 PM
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Ron, the function of that devise was not designed by Keystone and I am sure much testing went into it before being allowed to use on sanitary systems. I would strongly consider relocating it before using something not designed for that specific function. Once the smell of sewer gas or waste-water gets into a trailer it is next to impossible to remove. It is like many things today .... if it is installed and working correctly there should not be a problem. This is probably the reason for the disclaimer about it's location and possible leaks. I really can't say what I would do if I were faced with this problem. Hank
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:50 PM
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My check valve leaked the first time I used it. It is located under my bathroom sink.
After washing the black tank for about a minute I went inside the trailer to look down the toilet to see how it was spraying.
I had a huge mess in the bathroom, everything under the sink was soaked, toilet paper, towels rags, and the floor and bathmat were also soaking wet!, I ran out of that trailer so fast to shut the water off!
Luckily it was fresh water!
The dealer found that the valve was cracked when the factory installed it.
Works great now. I still go in and check it as soon as turn the Black flush water on, don't want that mess again.
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:19 PM
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In the Alpine 3640, the vacuum/check valve is inside the wall between the "toilet closet" and the bedroom. Inside the toilet closet, there is a shallow linen cabinet on that wall. I have searched high and low in that cabinet trying to find an access panel to at least see that valve. Nothing. Unless I cut a hole in the cabinet, and then mount my own access panel . Now, on the bedroom side, SURPRISE! There is a 120VAC duplex socket in that wall . . . below the valve if indeed the valve is at least 6" higher than the top of the toilet.

So, let's add it up here . . . coming up from the basement . . . The Iota 50 Amp Transfer Switch . . . a 120VAC 15 amp breaker Duplex Socket . . . some RG-6 TV coax running about . . . and at the highest point, a Plastic Vacuum/Check Valve! Hmm, maybe I ought to start using WD-40 for flushing the black tank?

Hank, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the "change of design". As you can see in the diagram, not much of anywhere to relocate and still have it higher than the toilet. I have found a SharkBite spring loaded 1/2" check valve rated for 120 pounds pressure and for use on Pex. I'm thinking that this might be a "change of design" to "over-design". 120 pounds pressure is about 8 atmospheres, which translates into a fresh water column some 265 feet high! Surely that is better than six inches above the toilet lid. And, the spring keeps the valve closed when pressure (water) is not applied from the outside, thus trapping any gases inside the Pex piping. In theory, ought to work.

Ron
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File Type: jpg 3640RL_Valve.JPG (32.2 KB, 183 views)
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:16 PM
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Ron, The spring valve you mention is designed to work in a liquid environment. I'd urge you to also assure it is "air tight" since what you're trying to keep out of the fresh water system is sewer gas as well as black waste fluid.
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2013 F250 FX4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS

Previous RV's
1971 VW Campmobile
1972 Dodge Camper 7500/Harvest Cabover Camper
1968 Airstream 26' TT
1972 Jayco Jayraven 20' TT
1966 Apache Tent Camper
1978 Dodge SuperCab/Real Lite Cabover Camper
1993 Ford F250 7.3L Diesel/34' Alumalite TT
1999 Ford SD F250 7.3L TF Diesel
1994 33' Seabreeze Motorhome
2005 Ford Ranger FX4/Sunlite Skyhawk Popup Camper
2010 Ford F150 FX4/Springdale 242FWRLSS
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:52 PM
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JRTJH -

I agree. Should actually be fairly simple. Put a test guage on it and run it up to around 30 pounds. I can't foresee the black tank building more than one atmosphere pressure. Probably if it did, I would have more problems than a wet transfer switch!

Ron
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:02 PM
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Looking at your floor-plan and what you have described. If the electric outlet you mention is in the bedroom wall ... disconnect from shore power and remove the cover plate and outlet you may be able to sneak a peek into that wall from there. Most trailers have some form of access panel to plumbing components. You may want to consider making one on the bedroom side of the wall once you locate where the valve is. JM2˘ again, Hank
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:29 PM
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Our trailer didn't come with a black tank flush system, I went to CampingWorld and bought one off the rack. It isn't connected to the fresh water system at all. In fact, it is a hose connection, hose, one way valve and a rinse head.

I realize that for convenience, so there is only one water hose connection at the side of the RV, the black tank flush system can be connected to the fresh water supply and then "isolated" with an antisiphon valve, but with the hassle of frozen valves, flooded bathrooms, I wonder if it's really a convenience or not.

Maybe, just disconnecting it from the fresh water supply, routing a water supply to the flush device on the side of the black tank and not having to deal with valves in the wall is a simpler solution than being in the middle of nowhere, at a truck stop, dumping the tank and finding the rest of your vacation is "down the drain" because of a busted valve in the wall.....
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File Type: jpg blacktank flush.jpg (11.9 KB, 154 views)
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2013 F250 FX4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS

Previous RV's
1971 VW Campmobile
1972 Dodge Camper 7500/Harvest Cabover Camper
1968 Airstream 26' TT
1972 Jayco Jayraven 20' TT
1966 Apache Tent Camper
1978 Dodge SuperCab/Real Lite Cabover Camper
1993 Ford F250 7.3L Diesel/34' Alumalite TT
1999 Ford SD F250 7.3L TF Diesel
1994 33' Seabreeze Motorhome
2005 Ford Ranger FX4/Sunlite Skyhawk Popup Camper
2010 Ford F150 FX4/Springdale 242FWRLSS
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:30 PM
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Hank -

I think if I made a cut access, I would rather do the cut inside the linen closet - less noticeable. And, I do plan on a peek through the electrical socket. .

However, with your advice and JRTJH's thoughts, I believe I do have a plan! JRTJH is correct. The Shark Bite is only rated for water. Testing it would give one comfort, but how long would it last?

B&K has a 1/2" Swing Valve Check Valve that is rated to 150# WOG (water, oil, gas). Perfect! Just install a couple of Flair PEX fittings, and connect the check valve, and I'll no longer have anxieties about water flowing through the transfer switch, or a 50 Amp puddle of water in the basement.

More chores for the Holidays!

Ron
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2011, 04:45 PM
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JRTJH -

Yes, the connection for the black water flush on the Alpine is similar. There is a separate black tank flush connection in the WaterWorks area. It's all enclosed to keep it warm in the winter. Fresh water hose enters the area from beneath the fiver. Have to open the door to access the black water flush connection. Immediately behind this area is where the pipe ascends into the wall directly over the transfer switch. But in a couple of weeks, that will be changed!

Ron
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2011 Alpine 3640RL (Beauty) (Gone! Replaced by Beauty2)
Onan QG 5500LP with
Command Center 30

2011 Ford F-350 (The Beast)
Diesel 4x4, DRW, LB, CC
Reese Elite 25K hitch
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